Ikea founder leaves fortune to no one, structures it to ensure it lasts forever • Hacker News Board

Re: Ikea founder leaves fortune to no one, structures it to ensure it lasts forever

#91

Post by wyager » Fri, Feb 02, 2018, 1:44 PM UTC

mseebach wrote: post #76

pqs wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It still seems an hypocrisy to me. In any case, they use the flag as a marketing tool, something which, from my point of view, doesn't show much respect for the flag.

Being Swedish is about a lot more than paying taxes and maintaining the welfare state. What you're proposing basically amounts to the welfare state and its needs owning the Swedish nation, rather than the other way around.

I think there is an unfortunate belief among many of HN’s primary user demographics that regional identity is the same as what political apparatus controls a region. I think it’s easy to fall into this trap when you and your community lack any kind of coherent cultural origin story, as many Americans do.

Re: Ikea founder leaves fortune to no one, structures it to ensure it lasts forever

#92

Post by chiefalchemist » Fri, Feb 02, 2018, 1:44 PM UTC

ChrisLomont wrote: post #79

chiefalchemist wrote: post #71

On one, this is honorable and impressive. On the other, why hoard so much? Could he have been at least slightly more generous all along? Wouldn't that, done earlier, create a positive sooner? A positive that could have been compiling social compound interest (if you will)? I under the rules of the game (i.e., capitalism). That doesn't mean you have to buy all in to those rules. There are (personal) alternatives.

>why hoard so much? Nothing was hoarded. IKEA is a private company, and the founder likely held a lot of that ownership. He didn't simply grab people's cash and hide it in a box. To turn that ownership value into cash so he would not "hoard so much" would be to turn ownership (and hence direction) of IKEA over to others. To sell ownership would mean others would turn cash into ownership, so there's really no net gain…

By defintion, more than you need is hoarding. He could have distributed (read: invested via donations and grants) more sooner. Why wait til death? Unless, there's some personal "quirk" (e.g., hoarding) prevented him from doing so?

As they say, ya can't take it with you. Why not go with your bag lighter? Why not go you're leaving with seeds planted and growing? Why risk some unforseen legal snafu? Etc.

Re: Ikea founder leaves fortune to no one, structures it to ensure it lasts forever

#93

Post by sevensor » Fri, Feb 02, 2018, 1:45 PM UTC

bradleyjg wrote: post #58

The development of no small part of English common law was the result of a multi-century cat and mouse game between wealthy landowners that wanted to keep their property in the family "forever" and everyone else that didn't want to have the dead hand of the past control substantial portions of the country's productive assets. Two groups in particular that didn't like to see assets locked away were dissolute heirs and…

Related, I remember reading that Jefferson worked hard to prevent inheritance in fee tail from becoming established in our republic.

Re: Ikea founder leaves fortune to no one, structures it to ensure it lasts forever

#94

Post by chiefalchemist » Fri, Feb 02, 2018, 1:45 PM UTC

dagw wrote: post #75

chiefalchemist wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok. But when why not donate the tax savings to an org that can use it? I just can't see "I don't care" resulting in hoarding (so much money). Maybe "Money doesn't motivate me" would be more accurate?

Ok. But when why not donate the tax savings to an org that can use it Technically the IKEA Foundation (www.ikeafoundation.org) is that charitable organisation. And technically they do donate a bunch of money each year to various causes. Of course they're not the most transparent of organizations so it's hard to really judge their philanthropic efforts. Maybe "Money doesn't motivate me" would be more accurate? At the…

Said better. Thanks. Words matters.

Re: Ikea founder leaves fortune to no one, structures it to ensure it lasts forever

#95

Post by _jal » Fri, Feb 02, 2018, 1:45 PM UTC

charlesdm wrote: post #35

hjnilsson wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There have been many inquires into this by Swedish journalists over the years, but it's a very dense structure of companies with unclear ownership and structure. So who controls it is unknown. It is also a great tax evasion schema since the ownership is a charity (that donates money to "product design"), allowing IKEA to escape vast sums of taxation globally.

Avoidance, not evasion. If you're a very frugal person, it seems pretty normal to hate taxes. No point in saving on everything, yet then throwing x% away in taxes (yes, I am aware taxes fund a lot of good things, but at the same time a lot of money is wasted -- I'm sure Kamprad thought he could better manage and deploy that money)

Injecting legal definitions into an informal conversation is a cheap debater's trick, annoying, and and hijacks the conversation.

Re: Ikea founder leaves fortune to no one, structures it to ensure it lasts forever

#96

Post by oblio » Fri, Feb 02, 2018, 1:48 PM UTC

erispoe wrote: post #49

viraptor wrote: post #45

> The foundation owns itself, so no Kamprad family members hold shares. Late stage capitalism... Anyway, I don't really get why the article claims he didn't care about money. It's known for a while that IKEA avoids taxes in many dodgy ways. If he really didn't care, the connected companies could pay a reasonable amount.

He didn't care for the lifestyle that money can bring. He was living in a nondescript suburban house near Lausanne and kept his old car for 20 years. Much like Warren Buffet, he was one of these self-made fortunes for whom money is a way to keep tally.

I'll see if I can find the sources but I saw some comments recently that it was a sham, mostly. He did have high expenses.

Edit: Wikipedia says:

> Kamprad owned a villa in Switzerland, a large country estate in Sweden and a vineyard in Provence, France.

I can't guarantee the prices, but those things should be in the multi-million Euro range. Not quite rapper expenses, but definitely not middle class either.

Re: Ikea founder leaves fortune to no one, structures it to ensure it lasts forever

#97

Post by matthewmacleod » Fri, Feb 02, 2018, 1:52 PM UTC

charlesdm wrote: post #84

andrepd wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh nice, if he thought he could use the money better, then sure, please carry on not paying taxes. Can I do the same? Or is that a privilege reserved for the mega-rich? Or let's call a spade a spade, and let's call tax evasion tax evasion.

Want to stop avoidance? Make proper laws. If it's legal (even through lobbying), then it is legal. And frankly I don't see why you shouldn't if you legally can. But to each their own views on this. You know who can stop avoidance? Politicians. They need to take responsibility. Feel free to shame multinationals or HNWIs for not paying taxes, but at the end of the day avoidance is only possible because politicians (or…

I can't agree with this enough.

Expecting profit-motivated companies to voluntarily choose to pay more tax than they have to is fundamentally doomed to failure. One of the powers of the free market is to encourage the elimination of inefficiency and waste—not that it's perfect at that—and we can't expect to both have our cake and eat it, in that sense.

I strongly agree that many companies should be contributing more to the state for the services that they use. But the way to do that is though robust and clear taxation frameworks, not some kind of general social pressure to pay an arbitrary, 'acceptable' amount of tax.

Re: Ikea founder leaves fortune to no one, structures it to ensure it lasts forever

#98

Post by jacquesm » Fri, Feb 02, 2018, 1:54 PM UTC

Double_a_92 wrote: post #90

jacquesm wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Get a $20 buzzer and cut it yourself. 70 euros to cut your hair is way overpriced.

Works for the sides, but how to do make a smooth transition to the top? Without cutting it equally short everywhere?

> Without cutting it equally short everywhere?

That was my solution :) Saved me a couple of grand over the years.

Re: Ikea founder leaves fortune to no one, structures it to ensure it lasts forever

#99

Post by matthewmacleod » Fri, Feb 02, 2018, 1:54 PM UTC

_jal wrote: post #95

charlesdm wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Avoidance, not evasion. If you're a very frugal person, it seems pretty normal to hate taxes. No point in saving on everything, yet then throwing x% away in taxes (yes, I am aware taxes fund a lot of good things, but at the same time a lot of money is wasted -- I'm sure Kamprad thought he could better manage and deploy that money)

Injecting legal definitions into an informal conversation is a cheap debater's trick, annoying, and and hijacks the conversation.

It's not semantic, or a legal definition. It's a very explicit and important difference – 'evasion' is illegally avoiding taxation, and 'avoidance' is legally avoiding taxation.

Messing these two different concepts up helps nobody and just muddles the two issues further. Avoidance is a problem that must be tackled on a global scale; but first, we have to be honest about what it is.

Re: Ikea founder leaves fortune to no one, structures it to ensure it lasts forever

#100

Post by dx034 » Fri, Feb 02, 2018, 1:55 PM UTC

gaius wrote: post #86

bsbechtel wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not caring about money doesn't necessarily mean you are willing to pay more taxes than you are legally required to, especially a subjective amount that others deem 'reasonable'.

willing to pay more taxes than you are legally required to There is a material difference between that and actively seeking loopholes that are not available to ordinary people. Ikea is only possible because of the physical and legal infrastructure paid for by those ordinary people after all. Not that they will do anything of course, the Viking spirit is long dead.

Not really. Corporate taxes and personal taxes are two very different things. Ikea didn't commit tax fraud (at least from what I heard), they just used structures to minimise taxes. Those weren't loopholes, they were made by countries for companies like Ikea.

Companies utilising those structures aren't the problem. It's governments creating the opportunities. Same as with tax incentives for investments. You can't blame a company using tax incentives but you can blame the state/city/region that they created them.