No, You can't retire rich at 30 if you sell your startup • Hacker News Board

Re: No, You can't retire rich at 30 if you sell your startup

#91

Post by pchristensen » Mon, Aug 23, 2010, 8:24 PM UTC

jshen wrote: post #81

yummyfajitas wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please tell me which point I'm wrong on. Do most people not live in larger houses, enjoy greater automation of housework, enjoy larger and better entertainment technologies, and benefit from medical procedures which did not exist in 1967?

I'm disputing the prediction that the future, if we remain on our current course, will be more of the same. Here's what you said, "If the past 40 years are a guide to the future". I'm disputing the idea that income inequality doesn't mean anything because the "poor" will have a higher standard of living that the middle class does today. Again, incomes are on the decline for most americans, and energy prices are risin…

"most people I know live in smaller houses than their parents"

But do they live in smaller houses than their parents lived when they were your friends' age?

Re: No, You can't retire rich at 30 if you sell your startup

#92

Post by Deezul » Mon, Aug 23, 2010, 8:29 PM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #73

jshen wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this is a libertarian fantasy and nothing more. Wages for most people have been stagnant or declining while energy prices are steadily rising. This is a huge problem

Please tell me which point I'm wrong on. Do most people not live in larger houses, enjoy greater automation of housework, enjoy larger and better entertainment technologies, and benefit from medical procedures which did not exist in 1967?

There is a big difference between that and going from poverty to upper middle class. By your logic those stuck in poverty in 1967 will now have graduated to upper middle class by 2010. Even if that is how you define middle class I don't see very great strides. I rent because the housing market is a mess (http://seekingalpha.com/article/115464-new-home-prices-vs-me...), I wash dishes by hand and don't care for an iRobot vacuum with a state of the art cat fascinating feature, health care is very costly or down right unattainable, but yes I do enjoy my Xbox 360. It hasn't convinced me of your point though.

Re: No, You can't retire rich at 30 if you sell your startup

#93

Post by eugenejen » Mon, Aug 23, 2010, 8:30 PM UTC

cageface wrote: post #74

yummyfajitas wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was only looking at the past 40 years, much like the original poster. My edit clarifies this point.

Even in that window of time if the underlying pattern is this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bacterial_growth_en.svg 40 years doesn't tell you much about the next 10. Growth rates in recent times have depended largely on finite resources, many of which are now becoming scarce. It may be that we innovate around all of this, but it's far from certain.

But the bacteria growth in Petri dishes is limited by resource, and bacteria has no way to change the situation.

Maybe we are really limited by available resources. We know for sure that we have limited supply of the solar energy. At the other hand, we are just using what is available on the surface of the Earth. Maybe we are going to figure out how to utilize more resources outside the surface of the Earth, or efficient way to use and recycle resources.

Re: No, You can't retire rich at 30 if you sell your startup

#94

Post by yummyfajitas » Mon, Aug 23, 2010, 8:35 PM UTC

Deezul wrote: post #78

yummyfajitas wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How the hell are all of our parents going to fare when you need 500,000 to maintain an upper-middle class lifestyle? If the past 40 years are a guide to the future, then the lifestyle we currently define as "upper-middle class" will be redefined as "poverty" and will be available to virtually everyone, including people who can't even be bothered to find a job. People will continue to complain about the declining midd…

I think you're making a mistake trying to apply something like Moore's law to a middle class lifestyle. Niche technological advancements don't necessarily translate to higher standards of living. If you're thinking the middle class life will simply scale the way hard drives and TV resolutions do you're in for a big surprise. I understand that many of the things we think we "need" or want become very relative over tim…

I'm not attempting to apply Moore's law, merely the past 40 years of growth to the next 40 (just as the original poster tried to do).

In any case, the point I'm making is that "middle class life" needs a time period to be attached. "Middle class health care 1970" would be pretty cheap today - any medicine available back then is out of patent, and dying of untreatable cancer is pretty cheap. "Shelter 2010" is 60% bigger than "shelter 1970". "Luxury" in 1970 would be a 32" color TV, as opposed to a plasma screen with playstation today. Basically, "Middle class 1970" == "poverty 2010".

It might be the case that middle class 2010 is as good as it gets - I'm not trying to make predictions. I'm just pointing out that if, as the OP suggested, the next 40 years are as bad as the last 40 years, then we will be doing pretty good.

Re: No, You can't retire rich at 30 if you sell your startup

#95

Post by leot » Mon, Aug 23, 2010, 8:36 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #31

StavrosK wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you'll either be a poor-ish young playboy or a rich old guy? Why does the first option sound more attractive? Of course, fast cars and country clubs are all superficial, but being a miser just so you can die with millions isn't that much better...

Saving a buck is a lot easier than making a buck. That's one very good reason why plenty of rich people are seen as 'misers', if they let it roll then they'd stop being rich pretty quickly. The secret to that is to not make it plain what your financial situation is and to live well within your means.

The tax situation on work you do for yourself (saving money) is also as favorable as it gets.

There's a sense in which dollars saved are like tax-free income.

Re: No, You can't retire rich at 30 if you sell your startup

#96

Post by webwright » Mon, Aug 23, 2010, 8:42 PM UTC

_pius wrote: post #15

I think it was Jadakiss who said "Entrepreneurs don't retire, they just get chubby and become angel investors." I don't know of many people in this business who actually plan on being utterly retired while they blow hundreds of thousands of dollars a year. Most just want to not be obligated to work on things that don't interest them.

But you ARE. Or at least you are obligated to work on things that throw off meaningful amounts of money. What if what interests you is poetry? Raising foster kids? Working on open source projects?

If what interests you is not an income source, then you're going to need to avoid "living rich". Which, IMO, is fine and dandy. I get very little joy out of huge houses, expensive wines, and 1st class travel.

Re: No, You can't retire rich at 30 if you sell your startup

#97

Post by rick888 » Mon, Aug 23, 2010, 8:44 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #40

steveklabnik wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

s/a nice Latin American country/Japan/; if($user == 'patio11') { print "yes"; } # http://www.bingocardcreator.com/expenses/profitability-pie-chart

In case anybody wonders if that's for real, yes, Patrick has made all his expenses/profits/turnover figures public.

he has. He makes ~$30,000/year (before taxes). Not only is this not "rich", most people couldn't survive on it. It's even worse if you have a family.

Re: No, You can't retire rich at 30 if you sell your startup

#98

Post by drusenko » Mon, Aug 23, 2010, 8:47 PM UTC

kscaldef wrote: post #59

sambe wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I seriously don't mean this in an insulting/trollish way but I think you are either lacking imagination or underestimating how quickly you can adapt to a richer lifestyle. Given you are even here and thinking about entrepreneurial rewards I'd guess the latter. On the other hand perhaps I underestimate how... modest you like to live? Whilst I also raised my eyebrows at "upper middle class", I know people in that range…

It was more of a rhetorical device. It's not that I can't imagine how to blow through tens of thousands of dollars a month. It's that that lifestyle just isn't appealing to me.

Spending 10's of thousands a month is getting up there, but "blowing through" more than $4k per month isn't necessarily an extravagant lifestyle. My guess would be that you don't live an as expensive a metro area as the author is basing his calculations on.

In a place like San Francisco, a few non-frivolous expenses can add up quickly:

- Your residence. A decent 2 bedroom place in a desirable part of San Francisco will run $3,000 per month in rent, a mortgage will be much higher. We're not talking anything extravagant here, just 600-900 sq ft.

- Travel. Paying for more than one person to travel to visit family/friends a few times a year can easily add up to $1,000 or more per month. We're not talking luxury vacations here, either -- just basic airfare (coach) and accommodations.

- Health expenses. As you earn more, you'll probably be more likely to spend more on optional health items. Things like LASIK for example. Also, as you get older, these expenses will get much larger.

- Kids. It doesn't even have to be private school we're talking about, but I imagine that clothing/feeding/entertaining more than one person adds up quickly.

- Any time/money trade-off. You have a limited amount of time and, similar to health expenses, you will be more likely to spend money to save time as you earn more. Each person's choices will be different here, but again, we're not talking luxury. Maybe paying for parking instead of a time intensive bus trip? Or arranging for laundry service? Or paying an unjust $40 bill that would otherwise take you 5 hours to fight?

Notice there's no talk of fancy cars, big screen TVs, luxury trips, large mansions, or extravagant dinners. I think this is the definition of "upper-middle class" that Tony is talking about. Nothing fancy, but a few things to make your life more convenient.

Re: No, You can't retire rich at 30 if you sell your startup

#99

Post by yummyfajitas » Mon, Aug 23, 2010, 8:48 PM UTC

jshen wrote: post #81

yummyfajitas wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please tell me which point I'm wrong on. Do most people not live in larger houses, enjoy greater automation of housework, enjoy larger and better entertainment technologies, and benefit from medical procedures which did not exist in 1967?

I'm disputing the prediction that the future, if we remain on our current course, will be more of the same. Here's what you said, "If the past 40 years are a guide to the future". I'm disputing the idea that income inequality doesn't mean anything because the "poor" will have a higher standard of living that the middle class does today. Again, incomes are on the decline for most americans, and energy prices are risin…

A quick google search finds many links suggesting house sizes have gone way up. This one says 1500ft^2 in 1973, 2500ft^2 in 2006.

http://www.realtor.org/RMODaily.nsf/pages/News2007032701?Ope...

In spite of the purported declining income and increasing energy prices, people in 2007 have more and better material goods and services than in 1967, far more than the mere $10k increase in real incomes would predict. You could be right, the next 40 years may be different from the last 40 - I'll leave predicting the future to you and Ray Kurzweil.

Re: No, You can't retire rich at 30 if you sell your startup

#100

Post by illumin8 » Mon, Aug 23, 2010, 8:53 PM UTC

RK wrote: post #69

maxawaytoolong wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The millionaire next door makes too much of a deal about stuff like clothing and cars. You have to control your bleed, sure. I've found that if you have half a brain and live somewhere with a lot of money flowing around like NYC you can buy fancy shirts, go out to dinner, AND save 6-10 grand a month, which is the best of all worlds. Millionaire next door is more for people running a landscaping business in the suburb…

Hmmm... I hang around with two distinct groups of people a lot: grad student types with essentially no money and young professionals (doctors, lawyers, etc) with nice, solid salaries. From my experience, it's much easier to not spend money when I hang out with the first group, because they have no expectation of spending a lot of money. On the other hand, you'd feel out of place with the other group if you don't spen…

It depends. In NYC if you work in finance you'll probably find yourself getting taken out to nice cigar bars or steak houses after a good Friday trading session and running up several thousand dollar bar tabs on somebody's corporate card, rather than paying anything out of pocket.