A Man Who Volunteered for Auschwitz (2012) • Hacker News Board

Re: A Man Who Volunteered for Auschwitz (2012)

#141

Post by b0rsuk » Wed, Jan 31, 2018, 11:10 AM UTC

greedo wrote: post #97

b0rsuk wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hitler had this list of peoples to exterminate: * Jews * Romanies ("gypsies") * Slavs (Poles, Russians, Ukrainians, Czechs, modern Macedonians, Serbs, Slovaks, Bulgarians, Slovenians...) Jews took the biggest blow, but Hitler didn't plan to stop there. And not all of it was even ethnic. For example, he hated homosexuals and disabled people. He was going to clean the race. Communists were a target, too. The reason he…

As well as almost any Polish professionals: Teachers, professors, lawyers, government officials, religious figures. The goal of the Germans was to dismantle almost all of Polish society and replace it with German society.

I'm no expert on history, but this is where Nazi ideology seems contradict itself for me:

  * They claimed that all development in Russia was led by people of German (Aryan) origin,
  * Yet they focused their efforts on exterminating the social elite first, to make the society of Untermensh (slave race) fall faster.

Could someone chime in?

Re: A Man Who Volunteered for Auschwitz (2012)

#142

Post by b0rsuk » Wed, Jan 31, 2018, 11:15 AM UTC

spunker540 wrote: post #6

It’s amazing how quickly our Russian allies turned into our Cold War enemies at the end of WWII. I’ve heard a lot of blame on both sides, the US stockpiling arms, McCarthyism fanning the flames. But the end of this story drives home just how brutal Russia was. A wwii hero who not only deliberately went to Auschwitz for three years, organized prisoners, compiled intelligence reports, then escaped and fought bravely fo…

I don't remember exact source, but I read American leaders didn't like allying with USSR one bit. It's just that it was necessary to stop the Nazis.

Re: A Man Who Volunteered for Auschwitz (2012)

#143

Post by dvfjsdhgfv » Wed, Jan 31, 2018, 11:39 AM UTC

b0rsuk wrote: post #140

dvfjsdhgfv wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is another point rarely mentioned in Polish schools when teaching about the origins of WWII.

I like to say that Poland has two official religions: * Catholicism * History of Poland As a Pole, I'm dismayed that history is taught as something to treasure, not something to contemplate, discuss and take insight from. History is just not treated as something to learn from. Criticism of Polish history is widely considered offensive. The standard tactic for handling ugly actions performed by Poles is denial. Just d…

I very much agree with you. However, as for the very phrase "Polish death camps", I completely agree with Poles. There were many anti-semites before and during the war, and also some collaborators, but they had nothing to do with the Holocaust. Moreover, some pre-war antisemites were the first to help Jews (Kossak-Szczucka), calling it "an obligation to their conscience". There is a certain narrative that blends Polish antisemitism with the Holocaust. Of course there were some sick individuals but as a whole the Polish society did not collaborate with Germans in killing Jews - on the opposite, they're the most represented nation among the Righteous Among the Nations, and the word "szmalcownik" is synonymous with the lowest kind of scum.

Re: A Man Who Volunteered for Auschwitz (2012)

#144

Post by olavk » Wed, Jan 31, 2018, 1:03 PM UTC

b0rsuk wrote: post #141

greedo wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As well as almost any Polish professionals: Teachers, professors, lawyers, government officials, religious figures. The goal of the Germans was to dismantle almost all of Polish society and replace it with German society.

I'm no expert on history, but this is where Nazi ideology seems contradict itself for me: * They claimed that all development in Russia was led by people of German (Aryan) origin, * Yet they focused their efforts on exterminating the social elite first, to make the society of Untermensh (slave race) fall faster. Could someone chime in?

I don't see the contradiction. They didn't exterminate people of German descent in the conquered territories, rather they were supposed to become the new elite.

Re: A Man Who Volunteered for Auschwitz (2012)

#145

Post by rurban » Wed, Jan 31, 2018, 2:03 PM UTC

antientropic wrote: post #69

rurban wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also don't forget the US largely financed the WW2 efforts of Germany exactly to fight communism, in Germany and Russia. Without the US-backed german industry Hitler never would have been able to attack Russia. E.g. from the 7 IG Farben board members 4 were US industrialists. You won't learn that at school in this century, maybe in the next. The large fascism homefront in the US consisted of the industry, the press (W…

If you're going to make the colossal claim that the US "largely financed" Germany in WW2, you're going to have to present better evidence than obscure factoids like 4 out 7 IG Farben board members being American (and [citation needed] on that as well). The claim that the US was "largely fascist" after WW2 also seems... questionable.

Colossal? Known for a while already. Just Google for US financing Hitler. Lots of documents. Without the secret support of the US banks and the industrialists Hitler would have had no chance to get elected and start the war efforts. Before the 40ies it was not so secret, as the biggest papers rallied for him and his fight against communism.

Well, the US style of fascism after WW2 can of course not be called as such in the homeland. The regimes it installed over the world were purely fascist military dicatorships, inside the country it was a modernized version of fascism, commonly called cooperatism. But since the 70ies scandals worldwide european lefts simply call it fascism again. Nothing changed since the 30ies.

Re: A Man Who Volunteered for Auschwitz (2012)

#146

Post by b0rsuk » Wed, Jan 31, 2018, 2:10 PM UTC

dvfjsdhgfv wrote: post #143

b0rsuk wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like to say that Poland has two official religions: * Catholicism * History of Poland As a Pole, I'm dismayed that history is taught as something to treasure, not something to contemplate, discuss and take insight from. History is just not treated as something to learn from. Criticism of Polish history is widely considered offensive. The standard tactic for handling ugly actions performed by Poles is denial. Just d…

I very much agree with you. However, as for the very phrase "Polish death camps", I completely agree with Poles. There were many anti-semites before and during the war, and also some collaborators, but they had nothing to do with the Holocaust. Moreover, some pre-war antisemites were the first to help Jews (Kossak-Szczucka), calling it "an obligation to their conscience". There is a certain narrative that blends Poli…

The "polish death camps" laws are intentionally bundled with the more controversial ones that take more time to understand. This makes it easy to craft strawman headlines.

As for the word like "szmalcownik", throw it around enough times and it will lose its power. For example, in Ukraine both sides of conflict call each other "fascist". In Poland, both sides of political conflict call each other "communists" - but very few actually back up their claims.

My favourite: "targowica", used by right-wingers to accuse political adversaries of treason. However, members of Targowica Confederation:

  * had a conservative point of view,
  * were hostile to western Europe,
  * criticized contemporary Polish constitution,
  * had a strong Church backing, including archbishops and Pope,
  * called themselves devout patriots.

Sounds very much like the current Polish right-winged scene.

Re: A Man Who Volunteered for Auschwitz (2012)

#147

Post by scotty79 » Wed, Jan 31, 2018, 6:18 PM UTC

yakitori wrote: post #110

yeukhon wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is so sad that rape is a common war crime in every war since very ancient time. Rape during WW2 was probably one of the biggest crimes after mass genocide. I am familiar with the Japanese’s rape crime but this is the first time I am hearing about this. Allies are no exception. The psychology behind committing such crime is beyond the “sexual urge” excuse.

> Allies are no exception. Absolutely. As Robert E Lee eloquently said: "It is well that war is so terrible, otherwise we should grow too fond of it." In war there is no good. It's just evil. The only difference is between winners and losers. > The psychology behind committing such crime is beyond the “sexual urge” excuse. Isn't it innate nature? In the wild, whether it is chimps or lions, you vanquish the males and…

> Isn't it innate nature? In the wild, whether it is chimps or lions, you vanquish the males and rape/procreate with the females. For much of human history, rape wasn't a crime. One of the reasons for going to war was for women.

It's very deppressing but apparently shape of human penis is very good for shoveling sperm of the guy that was before you. In tribal or pre-tribal times it's possible that war gang rapes were common enough to shape evolution.

Re: A Man Who Volunteered for Auschwitz (2012)

#148

Post by scotty79 » Wed, Jan 31, 2018, 6:19 PM UTC

toomanybeersies wrote: post #126

yakitori wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Allies are no exception. Absolutely. As Robert E Lee eloquently said: "It is well that war is so terrible, otherwise we should grow too fond of it." In war there is no good. It's just evil. The only difference is between winners and losers. > The psychology behind committing such crime is beyond the “sexual urge” excuse. Isn't it innate nature? In the wild, whether it is chimps or lions, you vanquish the males and…

> The entirety of european colonization ( from africa to china ) was mass rape of women I was with you up until then. European colonisation was about exploiting the natural resources of the Africa and the Orient, not the women.

I don't think it was the goal. Just the side effect.

Re: A Man Who Volunteered for Auschwitz (2012)

#149

Post by michaelmrose » Wed, Jan 31, 2018, 7:38 PM UTC

dvfjsdhgfv wrote: post #111

michaelmrose wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"ut rather that in Soviet, and ultimately Russian, culture, human life is much more dispensable to those in power than it is in the West." It is easy to lay blame at the feet of a handful of leaders and forget that in centuries the Russian people put their arms, their strength, their blood behind such. It is easy to focus on a single tiny person within the scope of history and say of course this person had no power a…

At the time of war there is no such thing as freedom. You are given a rifle and ordered to kill. If you disobey, you are killed, it's as simple as that. Try to be in that situation and then talk about responsibility. Tell me, who was responsible for the hundreds of thousands killed in the battle of Verdun: individual soldiers? Scared to death, trembling, half-insane, playing dead under the dead, left without any reas…

Their society found their situation tolerable. Even after the chaos was over they kept the same style of leadership. The same people who spent their blood but kept their lives didn't fight for something much better.

The same was true of prior tyrants they embraced.

Re: A Man Who Volunteered for Auschwitz (2012)

#150

Post by b0rsuk » Wed, Jan 31, 2018, 11:08 PM UTC

olavk wrote: post #144

b0rsuk wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm no expert on history, but this is where Nazi ideology seems contradict itself for me: * They claimed that all development in Russia was led by people of German (Aryan) origin, * Yet they focused their efforts on exterminating the social elite first, to make the society of Untermensh (slave race) fall faster. Could someone chime in?

I don't see the contradiction. They didn't exterminate people of German descent in the conquered territories, rather they were supposed to become the new elite.

Focusing on exterminating of social elite (doctors, lawyers, famous artists, officers, writers, journalists...) is admitting there was an elite. How can a slave race have people creating culture and order?