Amazon, Berkshire, JPMorgan to Create Healthcare Company • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon, Berkshire, JPMorgan to Create Healthcare Company

#511

Post by analog31 » Wed, Jan 31, 2018, 5:20 PM UTC

visarga wrote: post #325

jawns wrote: post #7

> The three companies said they plan to set up a new independent company "that is free from profit-making incentives and constraints." I wonder if they will be setting it up as a health insurance cooperative, an organizational structure in which the primary goal is to serve its members, rather than to generate value for external shareholders: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_insurance_cooperative It's not at all…

> distributism Thank you for giving a name to something I have been pondering a lot. I have come to this conclusion by thinking about automation and technological unemployment. If people own land, or productive tools, they can be self reliant and exist without jobs from corporations, or help from the state. Naturally people would organise as a cooperative or a market of services, exchanging services for services, bec…

The earth can't physically support the existing human population without great cooperative ventures such as the production of electricity and nitrogen fertilizer. It can't support life at anywhere close to the present day level of prosperity without additional great ventures such as transportation, medicine, telecommunications, money systems, and electronics manufacturing. All known means of operating those ventures depend on the state, including the entitlements granted to corporations.

Giving up these ventures would require such a massive reduction to the quantity and quality of human life, that it would be unacceptable to the vast majority of people.

The Haber process ended humanity's hopes of creating a society based on self reliance.

Re: Amazon, Berkshire, JPMorgan to Create Healthcare Company

#512

Post by dredmorbius » Wed, Jan 31, 2018, 5:31 PM UTC

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #39

tw1010 wrote: post #21

I'm neutral on the particulars of this venture (it's probably positive). But how can anyone argue that the market is efficient when it is possible for companies that "is free from profit-making incentives" to exist? Just curious. How does this example fit into that framework?

> how can anyone argue that the market is efficient when it is possible for companies that "is free from profit-making incentives" to exist? "Commoditise your complements" is an old and true business mantra. It's the reason it's good business for Google to promote an open web or investment banks to promote mutually-owned, virtually profitless settlement & clearing organizations like the DTCC and SWIFT. Much of the ro…

Any references or suggested reading on that?

Re: Amazon, Berkshire, JPMorgan to Create Healthcare Company

#513

Post by EwanG » Wed, Jan 31, 2018, 5:40 PM UTC

jawns wrote: post #7

> The three companies said they plan to set up a new independent company "that is free from profit-making incentives and constraints." I wonder if they will be setting it up as a health insurance cooperative, an organizational structure in which the primary goal is to serve its members, rather than to generate value for external shareholders: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_insurance_cooperative It's not at all…

Would having an Amazon Prime "Membership" likely count enough to expect to see Amazon offer this to consumers (possibly at enough of a discount to make it competitive with employer insurance)? I would think that having access to medical records to determine that someone needs a few more OTC allergy med suggestions might make this a long term goal of the project. In that same vein, fully expect to see an Amazon Credit Union someday as well and possibly part of a complete "Amazon Member Benefits" bundle.

Re: Amazon, Berkshire, JPMorgan to Create Healthcare Company

#514

Post by stale2002 » Wed, Jan 31, 2018, 6:00 PM UTC

analog31 wrote: post #511

visarga wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> distributism Thank you for giving a name to something I have been pondering a lot. I have come to this conclusion by thinking about automation and technological unemployment. If people own land, or productive tools, they can be self reliant and exist without jobs from corporations, or help from the state. Naturally people would organise as a cooperative or a market of services, exchanging services for services, bec…

The earth can't physically support the existing human population without great cooperative ventures such as the production of electricity and nitrogen fertilizer. It can't support life at anywhere close to the present day level of prosperity without additional great ventures such as transportation, medicine, telecommunications, money systems, and electronics manufacturing. All known means of operating those ventures…

By every possible quality of life metric, things have been getting better and better for humans.

People have predicted the population bomb many times for hundreds of years, and every time they have been wrong.

Scientists predict human population to peak in 2040 anyway. I think that we can make it till then.

The world supports the current population quite well, right now.

Re: Amazon, Berkshire, JPMorgan to Create Healthcare Company

#515

Post by jawns » Wed, Jan 31, 2018, 6:11 PM UTC

rmk wrote: post #463

visarga wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> distributism Thank you for giving a name to something I have been pondering a lot. I have come to this conclusion by thinking about automation and technological unemployment. If people own land, or productive tools, they can be self reliant and exist without jobs from corporations, or help from the state. Naturally people would organise as a cooperative or a market of services, exchanging services for services, bec…

This is a type of utopia that many of us yearn for, but never appears to have worked at the level of large nation-states. I mean, here are some things that are not taken into account: - People who can not work because they simply can't hold down a job, period. - Externalities such as neighboring (or even distant) communes dumping wastewater into rivers etc., or polluting the ground, or air... you get the idea. What a…

How familiar are you with distributism? It certainly does not advocate for communes! Distributism is merely an (admittedly aspirational) economic system where the ownership of productive property is widespread.

A few of its guiding principles may answer your concerns:

* Subsidiarity teaches that things should be handled at the lowest or least centralized level that is competent to handle them. That doesn't mean that small organizations should be expected to bite off more than they could handle. It may very well be that a giant, multinational corporation is the lowest-sized organization that can handle operating something like an airline, and that is not inconsistent with distributist principles.

* Distributism, as an economic system, is not at all incompatible with things like a strong social safety net. However, it is worth pointing out that if the ownership of productive property were to become more widespread, the need for such a safety net would be decreased.

Re: Amazon, Berkshire, JPMorgan to Create Healthcare Company

#516

Post by maxxxxx » Wed, Jan 31, 2018, 6:14 PM UTC

pc86 wrote: post #143

coding123 wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because it is a fundamental whatever of capitalism, doesn't make it 'not wrong'.

Doesn't it? America is unapologetically a capitalist nation with a few notable and infuriating exceptions (looking at you, ISPs). I mean if you want to make an anti-capitalist argument on a message board owned by a venture capital firm, feel free. But by definition "profit = good"

We have to distinguish between capitalism and functioning markets. The capitalists do great in the US health system, but the market doesn't function.

Re: Amazon, Berkshire, JPMorgan to Create Healthcare Company

#517

Post by disprove » Wed, Jan 31, 2018, 6:39 PM UTC

TillE wrote: post #361

jedberg wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People don't pay individually for private security/police. We don't pay for fire. Sure they do. Rich people hire private security all the time. Heck, not-rich people do it too. Like your local Chuck E Cheese who hires a security guard on Friday night. Same with fire protection. There are plenty of private fire protection companies. Everyone gets those basic services paid for out of their taxes, but some people want…

Germany is one of very few countries with a robust public insurance scheme which also allows private insurance, but I wouldn't expect that to last too much longer - there's a growing consensus (57.6% in a recent poll) around the idea that receiving faster or better care because you can pay more is fundamentally unfair. People need the health care that they need. Unless we're talking about small things like your own p…

> receiving faster or better care because you can pay more is fundamentally unfair

It's considered fair exactly the for reasons you have mentioned: you pay more for a premium product.

> there's no room in a just society for a "basic service" which does not provide the best possible care.

A regulated market that denies individual differences and enforces the same salary for different talents is incompatible with a "just society". In this case, healthcare workers with above-average talent would emigrate to a country where they can get a fair salary.

If you are worried about fairness, please consider the other side, the healthcare professional who provides the service.

Patients who pay basic fees are not entitled for the "best possible care". The provider of the "best possible care" can raise the price anytime. There is no economic justification for price rigging.

Re: Amazon, Berkshire, JPMorgan to Create Healthcare Company

#518

Post by ThirdFoundation » Wed, Jan 31, 2018, 7:44 PM UTC

NicoJuicy wrote: post #485

So JPMorgan is helping to create a company "that is free from profit-making incentives and constraints." I don't buy it.

Well, I think it could make sense in that this new healthcare company's goal is to lower the costs Amazon, Berkshire, and JPMorgan pay for healthcare for their respective employees.

So I think it's possible that the healthcare company exists "free from profit-making incentives and constraints" while also aligning with JPMorgan's goal of increasing profits by lowering their corporate healthcare costs.

If this also increases employee happiness by way of lower payments and better service, I see a world where all of the above is possible and it works out better for all (except rival healthcare providers).

Though I tend to side with you and am dubious until proven otherwise.

Re: Amazon, Berkshire, JPMorgan to Create Healthcare Company

#519

Post by learc83 » Wed, Jan 31, 2018, 7:45 PM UTC

kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #483

learc83 wrote: post #471

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hospitals aren't charging insurance companies $30 for Tylenol and then paying insurance companies under the table if that's what you're alleging. That's completely illegal and it's just too noticeable for them to do it large scale. The OP was making a baseless claim because they didn't know what they were talking about, and you're now grasping at straws supporting their claim for some reason.

None of the stakeholders in American for-profit healthcare have any incentive to reduce costs so everything just keeps ratcheting up. Growth can't be achieved by increasing the population of sick people so the only other option is to raise prices. The insurance companies do benefit from this. They agree to cover the inflated pricing so that their 20% cut can be bigger. If ACA permitted rational price controls this wh…

How does this have anything to do with

>I think they're just pocketing the difference between the market rate and what their costs are.

The OP had made a very specific claim about Kaiser. That Kaiser is reducing their costs but pocketing the savings and not passing them on to consumers.

I pointed out that there is no legal way for them to do that. You've made 3 posts and so far nothing you've said in anyway refutes that.

Re: Amazon, Berkshire, JPMorgan to Create Healthcare Company

#520

Post by blantonl » Wed, Jan 31, 2018, 8:03 PM UTC

sanmon3186 wrote: post #473

blantonl wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

USAA would be a classic example

Absolutely. So based on what I know their financial products and customer service is awesome but I doubt if it comes at a price which is lower than the market (even after considering what they give back to its members).

Their insurance risk pool is far more favorable - those in the military are generally more healthy than the general population, and they have pretty much guaranteed income.