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A man accused of cheating at video games may lose his Guinness World Record

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Re: A man accused of cheating at video games may lose his Guinness World Record

#81

Post by balls187 »

glhaynes wrote: post #55
balls187 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speedrunslive defines a glitch as an "unintentional mistake in games code." In your example, the dash-crouch in SMB is a glitch.

Unless we're talking about something different than I'm imagining (like sliding through a wall or something), that seems obviously not a glitch. Mario has momentum that continues to apply when he changes to a crouching state and it would look really weird if it didn't. (I recognize that this is just proving the point that "glitch or not" is hard to define... and probably harder to define than one would expect.)

Yeah you're right, I'm thinking of a different glitch, sliding through walls above mario which, unrelated to running, crouching, and using momentum.

Re: A man accused of cheating at video games may lose his Guinness World Record

#82

Post by BoiledCabbage »

wnevets wrote: post #50

>Rogers’s record on the classic Atari arcade game Centipede, for example, had been listed on the Twin Galaxies site as being 65,000,000. The second-highest score, 58,078, barely comes close Wow and nobody thought that was a bit suspicious?

I don't follow this stuff, but Twin Galaxies deserves zero respect after this.

To be considered a reputable organization and not even question scores like this is laughable. And there were multiple this absurd.

Re: A man accused of cheating at video games may lose his Guinness World Record

#83

Post by fortythirteen »

BoiledCabbage wrote: post #82
wnevets wrote: post #50

>Rogers’s record on the classic Atari arcade game Centipede, for example, had been listed on the Twin Galaxies site as being 65,000,000. The second-highest score, 58,078, barely comes close Wow and nobody thought that was a bit suspicious?

I don't follow this stuff, but Twin Galaxies deserves zero respect after this. To be considered a reputable organization and not even question scores like this is laughable. And there were multiple this absurd.

Yet try to submit legitimate high scores as an _unknown_ and you'll find them repeatedly dismissed on "technicalities".

Many of their arcade "high scores" for lesser known titles are easily broken by someone practicing for less than a week, but happen to be long held by TG regulars, with hundreds of "high scores".

Re: A man accused of cheating at video games may lose his Guinness World Record

#84

Post by ZeroGravitas »

balls187 wrote: post #79
jerf wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you thinking of AlphaGo? http://www.killtenrats.com/2016/03/12/alphago/

That's probably it.

You're probably thinking of Kasparov vs Deep Blue, the rematch. Kasparov was freaked out by a move he couldn't understand the motive for, bit assumed the computer did it for a reason. Wired magazine claims it may have been a bug.

Re: A man accused of cheating at video games may lose his Guinness World Record

#85

Post by tsumnia »

dgjj wrote: post #73
tsumnia wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue is that "child rapist" implies "poor judgment of character". This implication cannot be made because there are plenty of accounts where "non-child rapist" have "poor judgement of character". No one is arguing a child rapist is okay; the issue other posters are having is that it is a incorrect argument. Any further "but what if's..." are simply assumptions that do not have proof.

I don't follow your logic, I could see either 1. The issue is that "child rapist" implies "poor judgment of character". This implication cannot be made because there are plenty of accounts where "child rapist" have "good judgement of character" . or 2. The issue is that "poor judgment of character" implies "child rapist" . This implication cannot be made because there are plenty of accounts where "non-child rapist" h…

My apologies, you are correct. I suppose what I was attempting to say was that the connection between video game referee and child rapist was a weak connection due to the relation of "judgement of character".

The statements "child rapist" implies "poor judgement of character" and "poor judgement of character" implies "poor ability to be a referee" can be negated if the person turned out to be a qualified referee. The gray area is what people agree to be what constitutes good/poor "judgement of character". This is where I believe what AdmiralAsshat is attempting to argue in his post "While that's deplorable, it does not logically follow that a child molester is necessarily an unreliable referee."

Re: A man accused of cheating at video games may lose his Guinness World Record

#86

Post by jstarfish »

AdmiralAsshat wrote: post #27
xutopia wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For those who can't watch. Some games were scored in increments of 5 and he somehow got a score finishing with an 8. Many scores were ridiculous like 650000 for a game that goes in increments of 100 and the second highest video verified score was in the 90k range. Then the fact that all his records were referee verified instead of video verified. The referee is serving a sentence for child rape. Then there is the lie…

> Then the fact that all his records were referee verified instead of video verified. The referee is serving a sentence for child rape. While that's deplorable, it does not logically follow that a child molester is necessarily an unreliable referee.

Criminals can certainly have integrity in the absence of a moral compass but for this sort of crime, integrity is in fact lost.

Child crimes are crimes that involve the abuse of trust in most cases. Like embezzlement, someone trusts you not to steal money or molest children given a situation with ample opportunity for you to do so, but you do it anyway. You demonstrate a lack of integrity when you commit a crime of this nature.

So why we should also trust him to be a living authority of a particular record? He has proven that trust in him is misplaced.

Re: A man accused of cheating at video games may lose his Guinness World Record

#87

Post by hanasu »

fortythirteen wrote: post #83
BoiledCabbage wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't follow this stuff, but Twin Galaxies deserves zero respect after this. To be considered a reputable organization and not even question scores like this is laughable. And there were multiple this absurd.

Yet try to submit legitimate high scores as an _unknown_ and you'll find them repeatedly dismissed on "technicalities". Many of their arcade "high scores" for lesser known titles are easily broken by someone practicing for less than a week, but happen to be long held by TG regulars, with hundreds of "high scores".

To be fair, many of those games are rather uncommon and may just not accessible for public play by anyone. TG arcade scores must be done on original hardware. So some scores are a testament to rarity more than anything.

Particularly on the MAME (emulator) side of arcade scoring - on a previous incarnation of the TG website, the rules for submission to a game were not public until a score had been submitted for that game. Some folks with many high scores were simply submitting any score at all so that others could even play along.

Re: A man accused of cheating at video games may lose his Guinness World Record

#88

Post by hanasu »

CrystalLangUser wrote: post #38

TwinGalaxies had quite the extensive writeup on Todd's various cheating [1]. There was a staggering amount of evidence, including TAS (Tool Assisted Speedruns) proving that Todd's time is physically impossible . That blew up in a 274-page thread, but ultimately I believe it took Robert T Mruczek's writeup to finally ban Todd.[1] Not surprising as Mcruzek is part of the "old guard". I think this reflected very poorly…

I think it's at the very least equally likely that the PR beating they were taking as a result of the Apollo video led them to make the decision rather than Robert's guidance.

Re: A man accused of cheating at video games may lose his Guinness World Record

#89

Post by hanasu »

wnevets wrote: post #50

>Rogers’s record on the classic Atari arcade game Centipede, for example, had been listed on the Twin Galaxies site as being 65,000,000. The second-highest score, 58,078, barely comes close Wow and nobody thought that was a bit suspicious?

Most, if not all, of Todd's scores were entered by a single referee. At the time, each 'platform' (console, computer, arcade etc.) had its own referee that would verify scores. That referee clearly was not trustworthy. However, Todd's scores were as equally valid as any other score on the site - all verified in secret by a single other human.

There has been years of doubt about Todd's scores, among those by other gamers. TG was recently purchased by a new owner. That new owner launched a 'dispute' system whereby any score could be challenged and examined by the community. There was never a formal process until now that would have allowed for this, regardless of how many doubters there were.

Re: A man accused of cheating at video games may lose his Guinness World Record

#90

Post by hanasu »

mackal wrote: post #51
ranger207 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the analysis proves 5.51 is impossible, and it's been confirmed that 5.57 is the best possible time through the use of an emulator with preprogrammed inputs, meaning that it plays the game perfectly. Todd Roger's response is that the analysis failed to consider the "human element" and how the console would respond to that.

Been Heck show also console verified the TAS (they ran a TASBot like machine to play) The score has also been achieved by humans on real hardware.

If nothing else, an interesting side effect of this whole discussion is the realization that 5.57 is even possible. Previously the highest scores besides Todd's were multiple 5.61s. The way the game works is that 5.57 is only achievable on certain starting frames. Any one of those 5.61s could've been 5.57s but we never knew until now.
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