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A man accused of cheating at video games may lose his Guinness World Record

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Re: A man accused of cheating at video games may lose his Guinness World Record

#51

> Beyond the software analysis evidence, which speaks directly to Todd Rogers’s Dragster 5.51 score time I didn't understand this sentence: it means that, looking at the code and calculating all possibilities of gear changing moments, it would be impossible to achieve 5.51 ? If so, why would any other evidence be necessary ? Or, if it wasn't such analysis (and I think that this one would be definitive), why wasn't th…

Yes, the analysis proves 5.51 is impossible, and it's been confirmed that 5.57 is the best possible time through the use of an emulator with preprogrammed inputs, meaning that it plays the game perfectly. Todd Roger's response is that the analysis failed to consider the "human element" and how the console would respond to that.

Been Heck show also console verified the TAS (they ran a TASBot like machine to play)

The score has also been achieved by humans on real hardware.

Re: A man accused of cheating at video games may lose his Guinness World Record

#52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a pretty safe bet, though.

People commit horrible crimes. That's one of those things that happen. It doesn't actually mean that everything they did was a lie or a crime, even if they are a horrible, detestable human in many senses of the word. I'd nearly argue that it would be in his worst interest to participate in defrauding something since it might have revealed his horrible offenses.

> doesn't actually mean that everything they did was a lie or a crime

Nobody said that

> they are a horrible, detestable human

Nobody said that either

All that's being said is that it's more likely he would do something nefarious, given his background.

Re: A man accused of cheating at video games may lose his Guinness World Record

#53

One thing that has maybe not been considered is that the Atari 2600 is susceptible to what's known in the online Atari community as 'frying', whereby cycling the power off and then back on very quickly while the console is running can lead to weird changes in the program state. Not saying this is what occurred, but it could be a possibility, depending on the code...

There are some games where you can modify the program state to glitch to the end, like Super Mario World: https://youtu.be/vAHXK2wut_I The explanation for the glitch is really interesting.

But something like this has to be given its own category. There's a Super Mario World category that allows for that "Credits Warp" glitch. The other categories have different rules for what you can and can't do.

So it's possible that Todd did something funky, but that would still make his scores illegitimate.

Re: A man accused of cheating at video games may lose his Guinness World Record

#55
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>banning glitches How can you even define glitches? In the original Super Mario Brothers, you could dash and then crouch and then slide through narrow tunnels while crouching. It wasn't documented in any official manual or anything, but everyone did it. Is that a glitch?

Speedrunslive defines a glitch as an "unintentional mistake in games code." In your example, the dash-crouch in SMB is a glitch.

Unless we're talking about something different than I'm imagining (like sliding through a wall or something), that seems obviously not a glitch. Mario has momentum that continues to apply when he changes to a crouching state and it would look really weird if it didn't. (I recognize that this is just proving the point that "glitch or not" is hard to define... and probably harder to define than one would expect.)

Re: A man accused of cheating at video games may lose his Guinness World Record

#56
Interesting article. For as long as I've been playing games there have been people claiming they did things which seemed unlikely if not impossible. However, given today's cycle accurate simulators and computation power it seems like you could certainly answer the question of whether or not the software would ever get to a certain point.

Re: A man accused of cheating at video games may lose his Guinness World Record

#57
post #44
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Twin Galaxies is notorious for banning glitches completely and it's one of the many reasons the speedrunning community abandoned TG. If he glitched, his runs would be invalid by TG's own rules. As far as glitching in speedruns nowadays, it depends. You play by the rules of the category you choose to run, which may allow no glitches, some specific glitches or all glitches. To give an example, let's take a look at a po…

>banning glitches How can you even define glitches? In the original Super Mario Brothers, you could dash and then crouch and then slide through narrow tunnels while crouching. It wasn't documented in any official manual or anything, but everyone did it. Is that a glitch?

Different speedrun communities define "glitches" and decide which to allow/ban differently. There's always going to be some subjectivity.

In the community I'm most familiar with (Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past), we assume that the devs did not intend for you to wiggle through single-pixel diagonal holes in sloped walls to get out-of-bounds or trigger the flute you may not even have by using a potion on the same frame you go through an east-facing door, and because those techniques allow you to play the game very differently than designed, we consider them major glitches and put runs using them in different categories.

There are several glitches that we classify as "minor" and allow in every category like item dashing and spin speed. Some people argue whether bomb jumps are glitches or not, but they're also allowed in every category.

At the far glitchy end, there's something called the "exploration glitch" that allows you to change Link's sprite's layer to one that allows you to walk semi-freely between map tiles. Exploration glitch is banned in all but a few very specific categories because it completely trivializes the game and lets you walk to the Triforce room within 90-120 seconds of starting the game.

The point of all this isn't to determine the single valid way to play the game (hi Twin Galaxies!) but to allow for sets of rules that make the speedrun more interesting. The same goal (reach the Triforce room) takes 1m31s with no restrictions, 26m50s with the "worst" game-breaking glitches banned and 1hr23m19s with all major glitches banned, and all three are completely different experiences.

Edit: some extra info on minor glitches (https://pastebin.com/zYM6TPmS) and major glitches (https://pastebin.com/bb0vHjcm) as defined by the ALTTP community, and the leaderboard with all the categories: https://www.speedrun.com/alttp

Re: A man accused of cheating at video games may lose his Guinness World Record

#58
post #41

TwinGalaxies had quite the extensive writeup on Todd's various cheating [1]. There was a staggering amount of evidence, including TAS (Tool Assisted Speedruns) proving that Todd's time is physically impossible . That blew up in a 274-page thread, but ultimately I believe it took Robert T Mruczek's writeup to finally ban Todd.[1] Not surprising as Mcruzek is part of the "old guard". I think this reflected very poorly…

Why does it reflect poorly on TG? > Todd's "Dragster" performance is one that I have qualified as being one of the top five video game performances of all time within multiple forum posts and in several interviews. I'd be curious to know what the other 4 performances were.

Because they accepted beyond ridiculous scores without any real proof, or even skepticism? In like every game this dude has a record in his score is impossibly higher than 2nd place. And these aren't even games or records which have been around for a couple weeks so that you can argue there's room for improvement.

Re: A man accused of cheating at video games may lose his Guinness World Record

#59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People commit horrible crimes. That's one of those things that happen. It doesn't actually mean that everything they did was a lie or a crime, even if they are a horrible, detestable human in many senses of the word. I'd nearly argue that it would be in his worst interest to participate in defrauding something since it might have revealed his horrible offenses.

> doesn't actually mean that everything they did was a lie or a crime Nobody said that > they are a horrible, detestable human Nobody said that either All that's being said is that it's more likely he would do something nefarious, given his background.

The issue is that "child rapist" implies "poor judgment of character". This implication cannot be made because there are plenty of accounts where "non-child rapist" have "poor judgement of character".

No one is arguing a child rapist is okay; the issue other posters are having is that it is a incorrect argument.

Any further "but what if's..." are simply assumptions that do not have proof.

Re: A man accused of cheating at video games may lose his Guinness World Record

#60
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For those who can't watch. Some games were scored in increments of 5 and he somehow got a score finishing with an 8. Many scores were ridiculous like 650000 for a game that goes in increments of 100 and the second highest video verified score was in the 90k range. Then the fact that all his records were referee verified instead of video verified. The referee is serving a sentence for child rape. Then there is the lie…

> Then the fact that all his records were referee verified instead of video verified. The referee is serving a sentence for child rape. While that's deplorable, it does not logically follow that a child molester is necessarily an unreliable referee.

I would argue that it does. Being a child molester shows a horrifically bad sense of judgement and a flagrant disregard for the law.
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