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UK mass digital surveillance regime ruled unlawful

theguardian.com

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Re: UK mass digital surveillance regime ruled unlawful

#11

Post by crdoconnor »

mabbo wrote: post #6

I know of very few British MPs, being a Canadian who watches occasionally British panel shows, but I do hear about Tom Watson fairly frequently and almost always for things I am in favor of. Now here he is championing the fight against mass surveillance as well. British folks: is this guy eventually going to replace Corbyn? He seems likeable enough to. And he has a sense of humor- the first time I heard of him was wh…

No. He aligns with the deeply unpopular Blairite wing of the party and has spent an awful lot of time and effort trying to undermine Corbyn.

This is good though. He should stick to doing stuff like this.

Re: UK mass digital surveillance regime ruled unlawful

#12

Post by vuln »

olavk wrote: post #7
mrtksn wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I remember correctly, Europe relies on US to spy on it's people so technically they are not spying on their own people. Personally, I find it unrealistic to expect that such huge opportunity(almost by the second log of citizens activities and opinions as well as precise control of who sees and hears what) will arise and the people in power will not exploit it. China is taking a more direct route but in general it…

> Europe relies on US to spy on it's people so technically they are not spying on their own people. Where on earth did you get this idea? Are you suggesting European countries does not have police or intelligence agencies performing surveillance?

This is nothing new. The US alphabet soup boys will tap right on the other side of the imaginary border. It's the same reason they fly people out of the US to interrogate them.

Re: UK mass digital surveillance regime ruled unlawful

#13

Post by matthewmacleod »

mabbo wrote: post #6

I know of very few British MPs, being a Canadian who watches occasionally British panel shows, but I do hear about Tom Watson fairly frequently and almost always for things I am in favor of. Now here he is championing the fight against mass surveillance as well. British folks: is this guy eventually going to replace Corbyn? He seems likeable enough to. And he has a sense of humor- the first time I heard of him was wh…

Tom Watson has agreeable views in a number of areas, but he's unlikely to be a candidate for the leadership any time soon. Quite aside from anything, Corbyn is unfortunately unassailable at the moment.

Re: UK mass digital surveillance regime ruled unlawful

#14

Post by beaconstudios »

crdoconnor wrote: post #11
mabbo wrote: post #6

I know of very few British MPs, being a Canadian who watches occasionally British panel shows, but I do hear about Tom Watson fairly frequently and almost always for things I am in favor of. Now here he is championing the fight against mass surveillance as well. British folks: is this guy eventually going to replace Corbyn? He seems likeable enough to. And he has a sense of humor- the first time I heard of him was wh…

No. He aligns with the deeply unpopular Blairite wing of the party and has spent an awful lot of time and effort trying to undermine Corbyn. This is good though. He should stick to doing stuff like this.

you say that like undermining Corbyn is an objectively bad thing. He's an extremely divisive element of the current Labour party and the primary reason why I (and I consider myself a liberal first and foremost) cannot support the current Labour leadership. Labour's always been a mix of liberals and socialists but in my opinion Corbyn is too far to the latter to ever unify the party behind his ideas.

Re: UK mass digital surveillance regime ruled unlawful

#15

Post by simias »

mrtksn wrote: post #10
olavk wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Europe relies on US to spy on it's people so technically they are not spying on their own people. Where on earth did you get this idea? Are you suggesting European countries does not have police or intelligence agencies performing surveillance?

I'm not suggesting that. The idea is that if a country can't do mass surveillance on it's own people due to political reasons, still can just let an ally do it and get that information from that ally as a part of information sharing agreement.

I can believe that it happens in some cases but I doubt it would make a lot of sense to do it for the mass surveillance of the population, if only because it would also make it extremely easy to do large scale industrial espionage. I'm pretty sure Germany wouldn't want the USA to have access to all of its trade and industrial secrets for instance.

At least I would require a better source than "if I remember correctly" in order to be convinced.

Re: UK mass digital surveillance regime ruled unlawful

#16

Post by mmjaa »

olavk wrote: post #7
mrtksn wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I remember correctly, Europe relies on US to spy on it's people so technically they are not spying on their own people. Personally, I find it unrealistic to expect that such huge opportunity(almost by the second log of citizens activities and opinions as well as precise control of who sees and hears what) will arise and the people in power will not exploit it. China is taking a more direct route but in general it…

> Europe relies on US to spy on it's people so technically they are not spying on their own people. Where on earth did you get this idea? Are you suggesting European countries does not have police or intelligence agencies performing surveillance?

Germanys intelligence agencies, for example, are entirely beholden to the US, and have been since the end of WW2.

Re: UK mass digital surveillance regime ruled unlawful

#17

Post by crdoconnor »

beaconstudios wrote: post #14
crdoconnor wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. He aligns with the deeply unpopular Blairite wing of the party and has spent an awful lot of time and effort trying to undermine Corbyn. This is good though. He should stick to doing stuff like this.

you say that like undermining Corbyn is an objectively bad thing. He's an extremely divisive element of the current Labour party and the primary reason why I (and I consider myself a liberal first and foremost) cannot support the current Labour leadership. Labour's always been a mix of liberals and socialists but in my opinion Corbyn is too far to the latter to ever unify the party behind his ideas.

He's divisive among a lot of the MPs especially the ones who came in under Blair because of his policies. By historical standards they're soft-left but they're to the left of the overton window so he's "extreme".

The members, most of whom are disgusted with establishment politics and neoliberal dogma are about 90% behind him though. Enough new members were inspired to join by him that they now have the largest membership of any party in Europe.

Anti-establishmentarianisn is only natural given the failure of the status quo to deliver egalitarian growth and freedom. You can have it from mild liberals like him or the far right. Either way the days of the dominant neoliberal era are numbered.

Re: UK mass digital surveillance regime ruled unlawful

#18

Post by mrtksn »

simias wrote: post #15
mrtksn wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not suggesting that. The idea is that if a country can't do mass surveillance on it's own people due to political reasons, still can just let an ally do it and get that information from that ally as a part of information sharing agreement.

I can believe that it happens in some cases but I doubt it would make a lot of sense to do it for the mass surveillance of the population, if only because it would also make it extremely easy to do large scale industrial espionage. I'm pretty sure Germany wouldn't want the USA to have access to all of its trade and industrial secrets for instance. At least I would require a better source than "if I remember correctly…

It doesn't have to be binary.

Sure they wouldn't want to let USA complete access, so they can spend their time keeping the US espionage on the desired domain and everyone happy and politicians elected.

Re: UK mass digital surveillance regime ruled unlawful

#19

Post by wholinator2 »

mrtksn wrote: post #4
dm319 wrote: post #2

Can anyone point to countries which are not going down this same route? In my head Europe is doing better with protecting privacy, but maybe that's just an impression. Canada? Not Australia. Japan?

If I remember correctly, Europe relies on US to spy on it's people so technically they are not spying on their own people. Personally, I find it unrealistic to expect that such huge opportunity(almost by the second log of citizens activities and opinions as well as precise control of who sees and hears what) will arise and the people in power will not exploit it. China is taking a more direct route but in general it…

It's called the Five Eyes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes?wprov=sfla1

Re: UK mass digital surveillance regime ruled unlawful

#20

Post by icebraining »

olavk wrote: post #7
mrtksn wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I remember correctly, Europe relies on US to spy on it's people so technically they are not spying on their own people. Personally, I find it unrealistic to expect that such huge opportunity(almost by the second log of citizens activities and opinions as well as precise control of who sees and hears what) will arise and the people in power will not exploit it. China is taking a more direct route but in general it…

> Europe relies on US to spy on it's people so technically they are not spying on their own people. Where on earth did you get this idea? Are you suggesting European countries does not have police or intelligence agencies performing surveillance?

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes#Domestic_espionage_s... for the Commonwealth version.

According to the Guardian and other sources, there's something called the 14-Eyes, which is a working agreement between the FVEY and the SIGINT organizations of nine other countries, including multiple European ones, like Germany: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/02/nsa-portrait-t...

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