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Minitel – The Rise and Fall of a National Tech Treasure [video]

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Re: Minitel – The Rise and Fall of a National Tech Treasure [video]

#31
post #11

FWIW, my engineering school's IT team still has Minitels in use in their various server rooms, because it can be used as serial console for a variety of devices (you know, just in case everything is broken and physical presence is required). The Retrocave Man should be able to do the same and enjoy our AZERTY keyboard.

https://imgur.com/a/R6pFi Yep, the adapter is easy to build. The minitel character set also has some handy glyphs in it for graphics.

That's awesome! Do you have more information/documentation?

Re: Minitel – The Rise and Fall of a National Tech Treasure [video]

#32
post #21

tech treasure? Seriously? Nostalgia aside, it was slow and expensive to use. Internet had no penetration in France at the time so a crappy solution that does things worse and made France late to pick up Internet afterwards hardly qualifies as a treasure in my book.

The Minitel service was rolled out 1978-1982, about a dozen years before widespread commercial adoption of Internet connections for consumers in any country. So the Internet penetration is not really relevant here. Yes, existing legacy technology sometimes works so well that newer things have a hard time replacing it.

It should be added that it wasn't made technically irrelevant the minute internet appeared either, Minitel had a few things figured out (thanks to its centralized monolithic ways) that took internet a while to achieve. Most important of those due to centralisation, the service-tied-to-a-paying-number and several numbers for different price point; payment and authenticity were the norm. Selling stuff to every days common users was a normality, it was done without any security risk, and an impersonator pretending to be your bank or whatever would be much taken out by France Telecom.

Meanwhile we were still trying to convince people they could buy on the internet by the late 90's, and how to recognize which site is their official bank and which one is a scam.

PS: Xavier Niel (the CEO/founder of Free/Illiad) is well known for having made his money on paid minitel adult services.

We suffered late internet adoption because of the minitel, yes, but that's because the minitel had been so good for so long that it had become part of our normal life by then.

Re: Minitel – The Rise and Fall of a National Tech Treasure [video]

#33
post #6

We were running a multi-user text adventure on Prestel at the time, and BT wanted to put it Minitel (in a lot of ways, Minitel was Prestel done right - at least technically). Cue some days in Paris running around with a 'portable' Panasonic PC that must've weighed 25lbs; 4.77MHz, orange plasma screen and 2 ISA slots, one of which was used to hold the full-length X25 card used to connect to Minitel. I got a lot out of…

Looking at your HN username, I am guessing you are referring to Shades? Hello there, Arch-Wiz! ;)

I lost 1000s of hours playing Prestel Shades... endlessly typing 'ret ls' at everyone and everything... ah those were the days.

Hmm, I think I still owe my father a ton of money for all those MASSIVE phone bills!

Re: Minitel – The Rise and Fall of a National Tech Treasure [video]

#34
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AZERTY really is a terrible layout though, I can't find anything it's good at, not even typing french. You can't write É, È or À on a standard AZERTY keyboard for instance. If you're programming you're going to have the alt-gr key pressed half the time but admittedly that's mainly because programming languages are qwerty-centric. But hey, you can type 'µ' with a single unmodified keystroke!

È and À are actually easy to write: the grave accent ` is ALT GR + è, then type your letter. Special thought for the ù letter, which has its own key even though it's only used in one French word 'où' (ok, we use this word fairly often, but still).

I learned something today. Thank you.

Re: Minitel – The Rise and Fall of a National Tech Treasure [video]

#35
post #26
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AZERTY really is a terrible layout though, I can't find anything it's good at, not even typing french. You can't write É, È or À on a standard AZERTY keyboard for instance. If you're programming you're going to have the alt-gr key pressed half the time but admittedly that's mainly because programming languages are qwerty-centric. But hey, you can type 'µ' with a single unmodified keystroke!

On Linux, CAPS-LOCK + é produce É. Ithink it works on Mac OS too. Only windows doesn't handle it. But I do agree, Azerty is not that good most of the time. Especially when it comes to programming.

I didn't know about the caps lock method (I always have it remapped to ctrl) but still, it's more like a workaround than a true solution IMO. Using caps lock to capitalize a word doesn't seem very pleasant: "Étant donné..."

Re: Minitel – The Rise and Fall of a National Tech Treasure [video]

#36

Minitel: what should have been a cautionary tale. Allowing "service providers" to charge money for every last little thing anyone does on a service results in, first a race to the bottom, as prices are compared. Second, a rush to ways to generate extra revenue through various irritating and scammy ways (the Yellow pages were full, and I do mean to the brim, of scams, same for the "porn" (mostly text or chat based, so…

>Minitel: what should have been a cautionary tale. Allowing "service providers" to charge money for every last little thing anyone does on a service

Which reminds me, that's also one of the rules of Project Xanadu: http://xanadu.com.au/general/faq.html#2

I wonder if that had turned out the same way had it ever been completed (or shall I say whether it will turn out the same way if it's ever completed?)

Re: Minitel – The Rise and Fall of a National Tech Treasure [video]

#37
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Minitel service was rolled out 1978-1982, about a dozen years before widespread commercial adoption of Internet connections for consumers in any country. So the Internet penetration is not really relevant here. Yes, existing legacy technology sometimes works so well that newer things have a hard time replacing it.

It should be added that it wasn't made technically irrelevant the minute internet appeared either, Minitel had a few things figured out (thanks to its centralized monolithic ways) that took internet a while to achieve. Most important of those due to centralisation, the service-tied-to-a-paying-number and several numbers for different price point; payment and authenticity were the norm. Selling stuff to every days com…

> Most important of those due to centralisation, the service-tied-to-a-paying-number and several numbers for different price point; payment and authenticity were the norm.

And service providers could do both IAP-style (pay-for-bundle) and ongoing-style (pay-for-stay), the latter being a great model for news services or story providers (serials and the like).

Re: Minitel – The Rise and Fall of a National Tech Treasure [video]

#38

Minitel: what should have been a cautionary tale. Allowing "service providers" to charge money for every last little thing anyone does on a service results in, first a race to the bottom, as prices are compared. Second, a rush to ways to generate extra revenue through various irritating and scammy ways (the Yellow pages were full, and I do mean to the brim, of scams, same for the "porn" (mostly text or chat based, so…

I used to work as a system's engineer for the biggest service provider of the minitel era, back in 1989+. MOST of the services were for professionals -- in fact the biggest by far for volume and revenue was a transport exchange for lorries... There were a few 'pink services' (can't call that porn really, it was just chatbots with (sometimes!) real 'hostesses') as mentioned, but they were nowhere near the biggest. The…

What happened to the thousands of miscellaneous services that were at one point provided ?

What I mean to say is that minitel was in an incredible position to grow and be a massive platform, worth 3 digit billions of dollars, and instead traded this potential for charging for every second.

This pushed all the random services (granted, mostly chat, and forum like things) that were cool at one point off off it, and first onto BBS'es, then the internet came with some free server space included in virtually every internet package. A lot of these were initially let on the platform, then bled dry, and died.

But minitel, without a doubt, could instead have pushed those services, and could have made it easy and cheap to host one of them, a decade before the internet arrived and it would have spread like wildfire instead of the internet, sooner, faster and with a few upgrades maybe even better. Instead, it charged by the second, made maybe 100 million euros total profit and died without any evolution at all. Because of France Telecom's business practices, everything on it was bled dry and was always losing money. And FT is a monopolist, they just bleed their services dry, and when they die, no replacement is forthcoming. At least things like Amazon have the decency to still offer the service when they destroy their supplyers. FT, however, just destroys.

And it was all for nothing. Despite forcing these charges, it has (well, had, these days) a reputation in the financial industry for being a place where sometimes interesting companies become shady, then die. All killed in the name of France Telecom's business model, and nonexistent profits, just so it could do it's charge-by-the-second thing (perhaps you can notice that I'm not a fan of telcos). Just so all the "profit" could go to France Telecom and nobody else could maintain a living on it.

Minitel is the ultimate example of France Telecom's economic sabotage : a massive monopolist that just couldn't stomach other people profiting even a bit of their platform and ending up destroying the market it had a monopoly over, all because of management incompetence, intransigence and utter indifference. It's not just that they didn't see the opportunity, as that requires looking for opportunities in the first place : they just didn't care. FT management is a reward position you get when some important politician owes you a favor, which makes it a given that high level managers are utterly incompetent, because either they are incompetent, or they're not incompetent and are aware that it's a favor : their days are numbered before they start, so they bleed the position for all it's worth and spend their time elsewhere.

Re: Minitel – The Rise and Fall of a National Tech Treasure [video]

#39
post #6

We were running a multi-user text adventure on Prestel at the time, and BT wanted to put it Minitel (in a lot of ways, Minitel was Prestel done right - at least technically). Cue some days in Paris running around with a 'portable' Panasonic PC that must've weighed 25lbs; 4.77MHz, orange plasma screen and 2 ISA slots, one of which was used to hold the full-length X25 card used to connect to Minitel. I got a lot out of…

Ah that would explain the mintel terminal I found at tymnet house at hemel for my odd terminal collection :-)

I used to work on billing for TG and latterly Prestel

80:BTG174 (Neuromancer on the NB) and I think I was Mouser on Shades

Re: Minitel – The Rise and Fall of a National Tech Treasure [video]

#40
post #33
post #6

We were running a multi-user text adventure on Prestel at the time, and BT wanted to put it Minitel (in a lot of ways, Minitel was Prestel done right - at least technically). Cue some days in Paris running around with a 'portable' Panasonic PC that must've weighed 25lbs; 4.77MHz, orange plasma screen and 2 ISA slots, one of which was used to hold the full-length X25 card used to connect to Minitel. I got a lot out of…

Looking at your HN username, I am guessing you are referring to Shades? Hello there, Arch-Wiz! ;) I lost 1000s of hours playing Prestel Shades... endlessly typing 'ret ls' at everyone and everything... ah those were the days. Hmm, I think I still owe my father a ton of money for all those MASSIVE phone bills!

Heh

When I worked in the TEC tymnet engineering centre we had an ex phone phreak who had got done by BT security for hacking Prestel.

One day the SD officer who arrested him bumped into him and freaked and demanded he be sacked - senior mangers told SD to piss off.

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