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My new favorite book of all time

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Re: My new favorite book of all time

#261
post #97
post #90

A comment of his previous book that whitewashed in the most absurd way modern era's industrialized warfare and other horrors, through data selection about thunders and other less important metrics: http://energyskeptic.com/2015/13-fallacies-of-steven-pinkers...

Gates and Pinker are rich, ivory tower dwelling opiate peddlers.

This breaks the HN guideline against name-calling in arguments: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. Please post higher-quality comments, or no comments. Ones like this are actually worse if your underlying view is correct, since in that case they discredit the truth as well.

Re: My new favorite book of all time

#263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you live in an area with reasonably priced electricity and access to plentiful water. I lived in Honduras for 3 years (2009 - 2012) and laundry consumed far too much of my time because water in the community came twice per week, and electricity was expensive. I had a cistern which was connected to the water main, and I installed a floating shut off valve so that I could leave the valve open to fill with water when…

Easy solution, just don't be born in Honduras.

Would you please stop posting unsubstantive comments to HN? We ban accounts that do this repeatedly, and have already had to warn you more than once.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: My new favorite book of all time

#264
post #247
post #213

I've read a lot of the discussions regarding Pinker's work in both books (but particularly his position in Better Angels), and I've always found his position to be slightly disconcerting. Pinker attempts to make a specific argument, that violence has decreased over time. Violence is not a first order phenomenon at a social scale - it's presence is predicated upon the existence of other key criteria, largely the exist…

All that is true, but its important to define the comparison. Inequality in access to the court system is better than a perpetual state of violence. The fact that our current system is imperfect does not mean it isn't better than it was . That being said, I find Nassim Taleb's criticism of Pinker's ideas much more relevant: That you can't know what kind of distribution you're in until it's over. Violence may simply b…

> Inequality in access to the court system is better than a perpetual state of violence.

Not necessarily, if it means that you've getting the bad end of injustice and have no way to get justice done.

Re: My new favorite book of all time

#265
post #247
post #213

I've read a lot of the discussions regarding Pinker's work in both books (but particularly his position in Better Angels), and I've always found his position to be slightly disconcerting. Pinker attempts to make a specific argument, that violence has decreased over time. Violence is not a first order phenomenon at a social scale - it's presence is predicated upon the existence of other key criteria, largely the exist…

All that is true, but its important to define the comparison. Inequality in access to the court system is better than a perpetual state of violence. The fact that our current system is imperfect does not mean it isn't better than it was . That being said, I find Nassim Taleb's criticism of Pinker's ideas much more relevant: That you can't know what kind of distribution you're in until it's over. Violence may simply b…

>The fact that our current system is imperfect does not mean it isn't better than it was.

Sure, but that's my point. Pinker makes an argument for "it is better" without actually delving into confounding measures of "better".

>Inequality in access to the court system is better than a perpetual state of violence.

First: If you were systemically dispossessed, you might take chaos over certainty of a negative outcome.

But before we get there, why compare it to 'perpetual' violence? I don't see a basis for that in historical data or arising out of first principles.

Third, lack of access to conflict resolution was a micro example on the citizen to citizen level; it isn't the only potential cause for a reduction in violence. If we look at the citizen to state level, the increasing (accelerating, even!) capability, scope and organization of the state to stamp out dissent seems like a great confounder. Would we argue that a reduction in violence directly caused by the state's mounting ability to cause death or incarceration against dissenters is a good thing and that as violence decreases due to fear increasing that things are 'better'? The same argument applied to interstate conflict very quickly circles back to how catastrophic nuclear and conventional weaponry has become, which is what Taleb's argument is based upon.

Re: My new favorite book of all time

#266
post #246
post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any examples of this kind of activist? Are they particularly common?

Sure. From the plebeians of ancient Rome, through the French revolutionaries and American abolitionists and feminists of the 19th century, to the feminist suffragists[1] of the early 20th century. [1]: One of the things I always find hilarious is the constant refrain among conservatives is "well, the old generation was right but this one has gone too far!" despite the constant decline in the fervor of feminist activi…

It's not just conservatives saying that, it is also people who have been feminists their whole lives:

https://areomagazine.com/2016/12/29/why-i-no-longer-identify...

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/am-i-a-bad-feminist/...

Re: My new favorite book of all time

#267
post #265
post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All that is true, but its important to define the comparison. Inequality in access to the court system is better than a perpetual state of violence. The fact that our current system is imperfect does not mean it isn't better than it was . That being said, I find Nassim Taleb's criticism of Pinker's ideas much more relevant: That you can't know what kind of distribution you're in until it's over. Violence may simply b…

>The fact that our current system is imperfect does not mean it isn't better than it was. Sure, but that's my point. Pinker makes an argument for "it is better" without actually delving into confounding measures of "better". >Inequality in access to the court system is better than a perpetual state of violence. First: If you were systemically dispossessed, you might take chaos over certainty of a negative outcome. Bu…

> Why compare it to 'perpetual' violence? I don't see a basis for that in historical data or arising out of first principles.

Most of human history has been a state of relatively perpetual violent conflict. Compared to that, modern times are certainly more 'peaceful'. As you rightly point out, that peace may come through state domination, which we may qualitatively assess as good or bad (or perhaps more appropriately, 'worth it' or 'not worth it'). But in general, I think justice is dispensed more fairly than it ever has been at any time in history. People are more fairly represented by their governments. There's less violence, and generally speaking less suffering. I think you'd be hard pressed to argue that feudal pre-democratic societies offered better lives to their citizens than modern first world democracies. I certainly wouldn't trade places with them.

Re: My new favorite book of all time

#268
post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All that is true, but its important to define the comparison. Inequality in access to the court system is better than a perpetual state of violence. The fact that our current system is imperfect does not mean it isn't better than it was . That being said, I find Nassim Taleb's criticism of Pinker's ideas much more relevant: That you can't know what kind of distribution you're in until it's over. Violence may simply b…

> Inequality in access to the court system is better than a perpetual state of violence. Not necessarily, if it means that you've getting the bad end of injustice and have no way to get justice done.

True but I think it's pretty clear that that's not what's going on in most of the world. To be explicit, that does happen. And it happens much more than it should. But it happens quite a bit less than it used to, and that's the important point.

Re: My new favorite book of all time

#269
post #248
post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

About ten years ago, my washing machine went kaputt, and due to complicated circumstances, I ended washing my clothes manually, for about two weeks, until I had a new washing machine. And my clothes were not very dirty, and I did not put all the effort into it that I could have. And still I understand these women. It is exhausting, boring, repetitive. Way worse than doing the dishes manually (which I already do not l…

Washing dishes is rather easy -- dishes are glazed ceramic, designed to be dirt-proof. Underclothing is designed to draw sweat from clothing, and outerclothing can't practically be made soil-proof since you don't want to wear ceramic armor all day.

Also, a dishwasher doesn't feel like it saves that much time vs. manual washing, so it doesn't feel like quite as miraculous an invention. Especially if you leave your hand-wash dishes to dry on the rack. Whereas a washing machine saves lots of time because as you say, clothes take longer to wash.

Re: My new favorite book of all time

#270
post #213

I've read a lot of the discussions regarding Pinker's work in both books (but particularly his position in Better Angels), and I've always found his position to be slightly disconcerting. Pinker attempts to make a specific argument, that violence has decreased over time. Violence is not a first order phenomenon at a social scale - it's presence is predicated upon the existence of other key criteria, largely the exist…

I generally agree, but I'm a bit confused by your framing.

Better Angels offers a range of causes for declining violence, and one of them is explicitly 'Leviathan' - the rise of state power pushing out all other forms of violence. His other forces are far more optimistic, but the "monopoly on force" argument is certainly not absent.

Having said that, I agree that people discussing and interpreting Pinker's work (Pinker himself included) tend to provide vastly more optimistic readings than I think are actually supported by the evidence. Across Pinker's "five causes" it's quite possible that Leviathan is the main player, and that others like 'Commerce' and 'Reason' are operating less to reduce conflict than to redirect it from violent dispute to fait accompli victories.

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