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The U.S. Gets Less Subway for Its Money Than Its Peers

citylab.com

21–30 of 179 posts

Re: The U.S. Gets Less Subway for Its Money Than Its Peers

#21
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> supposedly efficient capitalistic market Unfortunately that's not what we have when dealing with regulations, red tape, unions, and somewhat unaccountable government agencies running the show.

I don't think it's fair to call out unions/government without calling out large capital investors as well. We wouldn't have suburbs or massive shopping malls without huge real estate investors pumping money into major developments that exist to drain money out of a market. Large developments are a net drain on local economies and produce far less efficient markets than small incremental developments based on organic…

IOW, if competition ensures efficient markets, i.e. low profit margins, then money spent on reducing competition is money well spent.

Re: The U.S. Gets Less Subway for Its Money Than Its Peers

#22
post #4

The US seems to get less of everything for its money than its peers. Geographic spread is a major macro factor, but you'd still think that a supposedly efficient capitalistic market would at least handle local services better.

> supposedly efficient capitalistic market Unfortunately that's not what we have when dealing with regulations, red tape, unions, and somewhat unaccountable government agencies running the show.

Ironically, when things were MORE political, they cost less.

Adding all the oversight in order to "prevent" political cronyism just made things worse by increasing the barrier to the small guy being able to compete.

(Normally, I'm a big believer in oversight to avoid corruption and graft. However, I have a friend who tried to bring broadband to his little town. Between the open meeting laws, requirements for bid, big telecoms swinging in at the last minute when they couldn't care less until it looked like something might go through, etc.--he'd have received less grief if he just murdered everybody involved and went to prison ...)

Re: The U.S. Gets Less Subway for Its Money Than Its Peers

#23
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> supposedly efficient capitalistic market Unfortunately that's not what we have when dealing with regulations, red tape, unions, and somewhat unaccountable government agencies running the show.

I forgot that Europe is known for its lack of regulations, red tape, unions, and somewhat unaccountable government agencies running the show.

My point was that it's not a "supposedly efficient capitalistic market" that we're dealing with in the U.S.

I didn't even mention Europe.

Re: The U.S. Gets Less Subway for Its Money Than Its Peers

#24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Specifically bad union rules. European countries also rely on union labor and don't have this problem. Another factor mentioned in the article is poor management which seems to be a common theme in America.

I'm reading these articles and wondering: why do these unions have rules for e.g. the number of workers that must be posted to a specific task? Safety? It seems like a tremendously inflexible way to go about it. I'm genuinely curious btw. I wouldn't be surprised to hear it's a counterreaction to historically irresponsible employers, for example, but I do wonder about the rationale behind U.S. union rules as reported.

It is because they are so corrupt. It has nothing to do with safety 99% of the time, but ensuring they need more workers on the job site. The mob got heavily involved with unions in the USA fairly early on, and influenced their tactics to what we have today. Europe didn't have that same issue.

Re: The U.S. Gets Less Subway for Its Money Than Its Peers

#25
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note, too, that the New York City Subway was almost entirely privately funded and built.

How was that possible and why does it not seem to happen today? What changed? Is it still privately owned?

Even back in the "dual system" days when two companies operated the majority of the subway, most of the lines / tunnels were built or financed by the city: https://www.nycsubway.org/wiki/Chapter_1:_Dual_System_of_Rap...

Later on, the city built its own third competitor to the two private operators, and eventually ended up purchasing them both. These days the entire system is owned by the state of New York (which took over when the city was out of money during the decline of the 1960/70s).

(There is a lot more nuance here... but the highlight is that the city/state often directly or indirectly financed capital construction regardless of whether they were the operator of the system at the time)

Re: The U.S. Gets Less Subway for Its Money Than Its Peers

#26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Specifically bad union rules. European countries also rely on union labor and don't have this problem. Another factor mentioned in the article is poor management which seems to be a common theme in America.

I'm reading these articles and wondering: why do these unions have rules for e.g. the number of workers that must be posted to a specific task? Safety? It seems like a tremendously inflexible way to go about it. I'm genuinely curious btw. I wouldn't be surprised to hear it's a counterreaction to historically irresponsible employers, for example, but I do wonder about the rationale behind U.S. union rules as reported.

I can't find it ATM, but recently there was a good article that linked this phenomenon to the disappearance of unions. As unions disappear in the private sector they become increasingly dependent on the public sector to employ their laborers.

Because union members vote and because unions so visiblly represent the working-class, in many cities the best way to be pro labor is to support union labor.

In areas were unions are strong but increasingly relegated to public sector work, that translates to pressure to bloat public sector projects with union labor.

One way to think of it is as a form of work program.

On a related note, some conservative commentators have pointed out recently that if you combine U.S. healthcare spending with U.S. welfare spending, it roughly equates to what European countries spend on healthcare + welfare. IOW, we don't overspend on healthcare so much as we trade-off social welfare spending for healthcare spending.

Similarly, I wouldn't be surprised if you combine the overspending on public works projects with similar jobs programs, it would likewise roughly equate to what European countries spend on public works + jobs. IOW, public works projects are expensive because we refuse to adequately fund training, long-term unemployment benefits, etc.

I think this is all comes down to Americans' inability to embrace the necessity and role of social welfare programs. But because we can't admit of the need doesn't mean our society doesn't ultimately respond to the need; our response is just obscure and indirect in a way that preserves the fantasy of the free-market. For example, we can blame these excessive public works projects on "corruption" and "bloat" rather than admitting that they're pressure-relief valves for legitimate political, economic, and social demands. Something similar could be said regarding the Trump phenomenon.

Re: The U.S. Gets Less Subway for Its Money Than Its Peers

#27
It seems like European infrastructure construction is more centralized than its American counterpart. In the Bay Area, there are two competing transit providers, each funded by the same taxpayers. Every city seems to run its own show, and CAHSR infamously rejected offers from European companies to do construction. It's just my view from 10000 feet, but the average city council has few civil engineers on board, so maybe a more top-down system could be better. The Boring Company might be a meme but at least there's not a different one in every city.

Re: The U.S. Gets Less Subway for Its Money Than Its Peers

#28
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I forgot that Europe is known for its lack of regulations, red tape, unions, and somewhat unaccountable government agencies running the show.

My point was that it's not a "supposedly efficient capitalistic market" that we're dealing with in the U.S. I didn't even mention Europe.

but the article does and compares the US to it, hence the peers part of the title.

Re: The U.S. Gets Less Subway for Its Money Than Its Peers

#29
post #4

The US seems to get less of everything for its money than its peers. Geographic spread is a major macro factor, but you'd still think that a supposedly efficient capitalistic market would at least handle local services better.

> supposedly efficient capitalistic market Unfortunately that's not what we have when dealing with regulations, red tape, unions, and somewhat unaccountable government agencies running the show.

>> supposedly efficient capitalistic market

> Unfortunately that's not what we have

We're stuck because "invisible hand" zealots keep doubling down on deregulation when faced with the phenomenon of market failure, as if they stay willfully ignorant of "market failure" the market will magically start behaving.

Re: The U.S. Gets Less Subway for Its Money Than Its Peers

#30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Specifically bad union rules. European countries also rely on union labor and don't have this problem. Another factor mentioned in the article is poor management which seems to be a common theme in America.

I'm reading these articles and wondering: why do these unions have rules for e.g. the number of workers that must be posted to a specific task? Safety? It seems like a tremendously inflexible way to go about it. I'm genuinely curious btw. I wouldn't be surprised to hear it's a counterreaction to historically irresponsible employers, for example, but I do wonder about the rationale behind U.S. union rules as reported.

it makes the union workers the beneficiaries of automation.

if automation lowers amount of labour needed, it's less work that the workers have to do, not fewer workers that the employer needs to hire.

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