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My new favorite book of all time

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Re: My new favorite book of all time

#141

Post by Symmetry »

chippy wrote: post #86
bryanlarsen wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"He encourages us to assume that progress is fragile, is not automatically improving and that we need to be active in defending our freedoms, our progress and the things we take for granted." But would Pinker or Bill Gates disagree with that statement? I don't think so. Bill Gates is devoting his fortune to doing so, and is doing so very effectively. And even if Pinker is wrong, I believe his message is much more lik…

Yes, I don't think that view was expressed in Gray's article about Pinker. But I imagine that there could be an implication that "if the data shows the world is improving, it always will do, progress happens one way and is always going up" which Gray takes issue to. Why act if everything is getting better anyhow?

The world gets better because people have been demonstrably trying to make it better. If the efforts of everyone trying to improve the world had come to naught then that would be an argument for lazy cynicism.

Re: My new favorite book of all time

#142

Post by TeMPOraL »

110011 wrote: post #57

I haven't read the book but I wonder.. as a billionaire he clearly stands to gain a lot from spreading a message of optimism and collective progress over the last century presumably to maintain status quo when an equally factual but completely opposite perspective on the world (unprecedented levels of inequality, our global lack of response to climate change, etc.) is also there for us to see. I find it very hard to…

A lot depends on your viewpoint. What you call "unprecedented levels of inequality" is, at the same time, unprecedented rise in quality of life for pretty much everyone - yes, for some people the improvement was greater than for others, but it's still a big improvement for everyone.

(I don't want to dismiss this issue, but reading about it, sometimes it sounds to me like a case of pretty much the most pathetic human behaviour - getting $10 for free and, instead of being grateful, getting angry that someone else got $1000.)

Hell, WRT climate change, we need some optimism, and we need to devote less time to usual social bickering, and more time to fixing what's important.

> I find it very hard to believe that his motives are so pure.

Everything he's doing nowadays fits perfectly the theory that his motives are pure, and about the well-being of humanity. Is there anything in particular you're aware of that is evidence to the contrary?

Re: My new favorite book of all time

#143

Post by koverda »

X6S1x6Okd1st wrote: post #62
julian55 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, that's a great book. I'm now reading "Homo Deus" by the same author which follows up on some of the ideas in "Sapiens".

How do you feel like Homo Deus compares to Sapiens w.r.t. being hand wavy and having a solid grasp on what the potential futures are that we are facing?

I'm curious about that as well. I've only read Homo Deus and really enjoyed it.

Re: My new favorite book of all time

#144

Post by enraged_camel »

mseebach wrote: post #126
pron wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pinker is much more nefarious (and you can know that by going to his talks, as I have, where he's more loose-tongued than in his books). He places such emphasis on the fact that the world is getting better as a rebuttal to "complainers" and political activists . The problem is not with his premise but with his conclusion. The world has been getting better (to the extent that it has) because people complain and are di…

There is a certain rather loud, rather fashionable kind of "activist" who are if not directly claiming that everything is awful, then strongly evoking symbolism and imagery to that effect. To fix this, they want to take broad, radical action, basically to affect revolution. This approach is indefensible given the actual state of the world, and these activists are either confused about the facts, or cynically manipula…

Can you give some examples of prominent activists who want radical changes?

Re: My new favorite book of all time

#145

Post by krylon »

JorgeGT wrote: post #72

> Time spent doing laundry fell from 11.5 hours a week in 1920 to an hour and a half in 2014. This might sound trivial in the grand scheme of progress. But the rise of the washing machine has improved quality of life by freeing up time for people—mostly women—to enjoy other pursuits. This. I remember following Reddit AMAs of two centenarian women, women who remembered SS troops arriving at their village, who watched…

About ten years ago, my washing machine went kaputt, and due to complicated circumstances, I ended washing my clothes manually, for about two weeks, until I had a new washing machine. And my clothes were not very dirty, and I did not put all the effort into it that I could have.

And still I understand these women. It is exhausting, boring, repetitive. Way worse than doing the dishes manually (which I already do not like to do).

Re: My new favorite book of all time

#146

Post by stormking »

cletus wrote: post #77

I (like other commenters) am cautious to attribute the lack of Post-WW2 global war to the UN. The development of nuclear weapons seems a far more likely culprit since we now live in the age of MAD (mutually assured destruction). So I can of course get behind the idea that War is Bad [tm]. The problem is that in evolutionary and social terms it served a purpose. And that purpose was (and is) the ultimate resolution to…

Before the UN, two countries could go to war and nobody else would care. "If they want to go to each other's throats, let them." War was seen as a legitimate extension of politics, not as an absolute last resort only valid for self-defense.

This could probably still be true at least for non-nuclear powers. Instead, we at least try to intervene and stop the fighting. So this argument is not so much about the UN as an institution but about this paradigm shift to see war as something bad that must be stopped ASAP, even if your own country is not involved or in any danger of getting involved.

Or short: War is illegal.

Re: My new favorite book of all time

#147

Post by DiffEq »

btilly wrote: post #117

On this topic, I highly recommend watching 200 countries, 200 years, 4 minutes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbkSRLYSojo You see how wealth and health have changed over time. In particular you see that there is NO country today which is as badly off as EVERY country was 200 years ago. When you digest the truth of that, and look at it in terms of family stories, impact on society and so on, my impression is that we…

"there is NO country today which is as badly off as EVERY country was 200 years ago" - I can name a few middle east countries that are worse off...and some African countries as well.

I think something else that needs to be considered is that all these years since 1945 Germany was held in check. This is increasingly not the case anymore and no matter how modern and progressive we think we are Germany always seems to have a penchant for starting wars. This time around, with them in control of the entire EU, it won't be so pretty and it is likely we will not last through it.

Re: My new favorite book of all time

#148

Post by TeMPOraL »

_greim_ wrote: post #61

"Better Angels"—and presumably this book—cuts against the grain of popular discourse, since claiming the world is in decline and a state of moral depredation has always been an effective way to agitate for change. Which is understandable on one level, because so much in the world is still obviously suboptimal. The reaction tends to be: "How can you claim the world is getting better when [insert bad current event stuf…

Not sure I agree. It seems to me that "claiming the world is in decline and a state of moral depredation" has always been primarily a cheap way of bringing attention to yourself, your cause, and gaining popular support. Which is why, for example, journalists love writing doom&gloom articles.

Also, if anything, everyone preaching doomsday makes people depressed, disinterested and detached. If the world is falling apart, what could possibly an individual do? IMO we need the exact opposite now - an optimistic tone that tells people that while there are problems, things are looking up, we're winning, and yes, you can help too.

Re: My new favorite book of all time

#149

Post by coldtea »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #125
Letmesleep69 wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The idea that "You’re 37 times less likely to be killed by a bolt of lightning than you were at the turn of the century" makes a large difference in the happiness of people is ridiculous. I believe he put that in as an interesting, somewhat unexpected benefit of modern life. His next few arguments are what really backs up his points. > Maybe its because rates of marriage and church attendance are on the decline. As…

Plenty of people complain about their culture disappearing, and being replaced by the universal culture (usually, but wrongly, called "Western culture" or "American culture"). It's one of the many factors contributing to the present rise of nationalism in Europe. Personally, I don't mind the universal culture. But then, I'm just comfortable in it; many people are not, and cling to their local traditions.

>usually, but wrongly, called "Western culture" or "American culture"

Usually, but not wrongly. Not only because bona fide American culture (even morals and soapiness) are the majority of what's replacing local cultures, but also because the little of regional cultures that becomes international does so after it passes from an American filter/lens.

>Personally, I don't mind the universal culture. But then, I'm just comfortable in it; many people are not, and cling to their local traditions.

In other words, you don't mind a base monoculture and the loss of untold regional treasures and ways of human expression.

Re: My new favorite book of all time

#150

Post by dragonwriter »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #142
110011 wrote: post #57

I haven't read the book but I wonder.. as a billionaire he clearly stands to gain a lot from spreading a message of optimism and collective progress over the last century presumably to maintain status quo when an equally factual but completely opposite perspective on the world (unprecedented levels of inequality, our global lack of response to climate change, etc.) is also there for us to see. I find it very hard to…

A lot depends on your viewpoint. What you call "unprecedented levels of inequality" is, at the same time, unprecedented rise in quality of life for pretty much everyone - yes, for some people the improvement was greater than for others, but it's still a big improvement for everyone. (I don't want to dismiss this issue, but reading about it, sometimes it sounds to me like a case of pretty much the most pathetic human…

> A lot depends on your viewpoint. What you call "unprecedented levels of inequality" is, at the same time, unprecedented rise in quality of life for pretty much everyone

That kind of assumes “quality of life” is a simple function of absolute material wealth and not strongly influenced by relative position. While certainly many people have moral beliefs that that should be the case, there is plenty of reason in all of human history to believe that it is not in fact the case.

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