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Why I find IOTA alarming

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Re: Why I find IOTA alarming

#31
post #2

I feel like I'm missing one side of the story. I don't know much about IOTA but from what I learned reading articles linked on HN today IOTA: - Uses custom "ternary" crypto which has been shown to have vulnerabilities in the past. - Has software that doesn't include the basic function of generating wallet addresses, instead having some users rely on shady 3rd party websites and getting their coins stolen. - Does away…

1. There have been no vulnerabilities in the past. Please read: https://blog.iota.org/official-iota-foundation-response-to-t... 2. If people are unable to generate a simple seed (password) on their own. How can they even begin to understand cryptocurrency or even new tech based on IoT? Still, yes it should be in the wallet and it will be added, but only for investors, I guess?! 3. Please read the following from their…

Thank you for your reply (and I don't understand the downvotes), but I can't say it really changed my view on the currency.

>1. There have no vulnerabilities in the past. Please read: https://blog.iota.org/official-iota-foundation-response-to-t....

Let's have a look then. It's in 4 parts, the first two are not about the purported vulnerability but rather complaining that the people behind the discovery didn't disclose it properly and might have a hidden agenda. Fair enough I guess, but it's odd to start with that, it would make a much better point if it came after a strong rebuttal regarding the technical aspects of the vulnerability.

Then we get to the meat of the issue in the middle of page 3:

>2. IOTA Protocol Security and Tangle Reliability

So they start by addressing the "IOTA's coordinator is a single point of failure". Their reply is that... It's true but they never pretended that it was otherwise and that it's temporary:

>IOTA node operators, understanding the importance of the Coordinator’s role in securing the network while it is still young, voluntarily suspended operations during this time.

>The purpose of the Coordinator in the infancy stage of the IOTA network has been transparently communicated throughout the history of IOTA. As the team has explained at length, the Coordinator is a temporary measure to help bootstrap the network and protect it during its infancy. Once there are enough full nodes and transactions to secure and sustain the IOTA network, the Coordinator will be permanently removed from the network. The specific reasons for this are complicated; there is a more detailed explanation on page 19 of the white paper: “...this indicates the need for additional security measures, such as checkpoints, during the early days of a tangle-based system.”

So there's a solution in whitepaper form. As far as the current state of IOTA, they have not debunked any of DCI's claims. But that's still not really the main issue, the one about the broken hash function. They sure do take their time to get there.

Next they talk about whether or not IOTA devs can mess with IOTA accounts. Honestly I don't understand the issue well enough to pass a judgement but if I understand correctly they sort of forked IOTA "ethereum-style" in order to protect the users:

>Ultimately, in order to implement the preventative measures mentioned above, a special snapshot was scheduled wherein all funds vulnerable to theft were tagged with a key reuse marker.

They also say that "Importantly, these protective measures were only possible with the direct and active support of the IOTA community". Except that since they control the coordinator, what would happen if the community hadn't agreed? Can they go their own way without coordinator? Would they have to elect a new one?

Let's skip ahead and get to the vulnerability with the hash function, the last point of the last page in this document. This line stuck out to me:

>The answer is that the Coordinator was specifically designed, in addition to other purposes, to prevent precisely such an attack.

Ah, the coordinator again. Beyond that I don't understand the issue deeply enough to judge whether or not the vulnerability is as bad as DCI said so I can't decide who's right. I do find the justification behind the weakness rather... strange though:

>In summary, Curl-P was indeed deployed in the open-source IOTA protocol code as a copy-protection mechanism to prevent bad actors cloning the protocol and using it for nefarious purposes. Once the practical collisions were uncovered, its purpose as a copy-protection mechanism was of course rendered obsolete (it only works for as long as it remains unknown) and IOTA reverted to the industry standard KECCAK-384 cryptographic function.

So... there's nothing wrong with the function, it's just some kind of protection against people cloning the protocol (why is that a problem?) but even though everything is absolutely fine they decided to replace it anyway? It seems like such a weird decision, and also a bad precedent (you shouldn't have hidden functionality in your open source peer-to-peer cryptocurrency). It reminds me of Intel's "Spectre and Meltdown are the CPU operating exactly as designed" PR stunt.

Re: Why I find IOTA alarming

#32
post #2

I feel like I'm missing one side of the story. I don't know much about IOTA but from what I learned reading articles linked on HN today IOTA: - Uses custom "ternary" crypto which has been shown to have vulnerabilities in the past. - Has software that doesn't include the basic function of generating wallet addresses, instead having some users rely on shady 3rd party websites and getting their coins stolen. - Does away…

The fun part is, that if you want to discuss such details (and I have much more) with an IOTA enthusiast, I get thinks like "I don't understand the technical details, but the founders say so you must be wrong. You are just discredit me."

So you, how want to discuss the details when people are just convinced without having knowledge themselves?

Re: Why I find IOTA alarming

#33
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Requiring users to choose a password as a seed for their keys is a catastrophically bad vulnerability. Is that really how IOTA works?

Sort of. You have to generate a seed(like a private key) and use that to log in. The seed has to be random. Some used a dice, others /dev/random. I fully expect a wave of stolen IOTA to come from people who typed a 'random' code.

No they used a online seed generator..

Re: Why I find IOTA alarming

#34
post #2

I feel like I'm missing one side of the story. I don't know much about IOTA but from what I learned reading articles linked on HN today IOTA: - Uses custom "ternary" crypto which has been shown to have vulnerabilities in the past. - Has software that doesn't include the basic function of generating wallet addresses, instead having some users rely on shady 3rd party websites and getting their coins stolen. - Does away…

1. There have been no vulnerabilities in the past. Please read: https://blog.iota.org/official-iota-foundation-response-to-t... 2. If people are unable to generate a simple seed (password) on their own. How can they even begin to understand cryptocurrency or even new tech based on IoT? Still, yes it should be in the wallet and it will be added, but only for investors, I guess?! 3. Please read the following from their…

0. I upvoted this response because it provides a legitimate answer to the question of "what's the other side" / "how can people possibly find IOTA a good idea." I hope others do too: it's relevant to the conversation, even if we disagree with the merits of the post.

1. Parts 1 and 2 were all fluff. Part 3 responds to the actual technical claims, and several paragraphs of fluff later, confirms the MIT claim that funds were transferred out of user accounts to an account controlled by the IOTA Foundation without user consent. (They had consent from some other network participants / the "community", and supposedly they had very good reasons for it.) I gave up by part 4, sorry.

Where I come from—which happens to be MIT, in fact—security protocols have a threat model, either stated or unstated, and a confused threat model is a legitimate criticism. One of the common unstated parts of the threat model of cryptocurrencies is that, unlike with a government-issued currency, the organization behind the currency should not be implicitly trusted and certainly should not be able to take your money for your own good. Is this part of the IOTA threat model? What exactly is required technically for this sort of transfer?

Re: Why I find IOTA alarming

#36
post #2

I feel like I'm missing one side of the story. I don't know much about IOTA but from what I learned reading articles linked on HN today IOTA: - Uses custom "ternary" crypto which has been shown to have vulnerabilities in the past. - Has software that doesn't include the basic function of generating wallet addresses, instead having some users rely on shady 3rd party websites and getting their coins stolen. - Does away…

Even the double spending problem is not really resolved. Just with the current theft, there are recipes posted[1] on how to recover the stolen IOTA by basically enforcing the double spending and trying to give your spending a higher priority than the fraudulent transactions had. That means fraudulent transaction could try this themselves and just need to exploit that race condition. That means a fraud needs to somehow collect the data on pending transactions and just need to issue their own ones with the known collision problem on the hash.

[1] https://www.inowrx.de/iota-stolen-iota-stop-pending-unconfir...

Re: Why I find IOTA alarming

#37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

BitConnect, a literal Ponzi scheme that was repeatedly flagged to newbies as a Ponzi scheme they should avoid, had a $2.5 billion market cap last month before collapsing. While IOTA boosters probably have a story they believe that justifies the hype in their mind, just because it’s worth $6 billion in this market doesn’t mean they necessarily have a good one. For what it’s worth, of all the crypto people I follow tha…

OT: who are the crypto people you follow? And on which channels? Twitter seems sadly popular among this crowd. Sadly because it lends itself to flamewars.

Here are two resources that I think are helpful:

1. Token Economy is a weekly crypto newsletter run by two crypto VCs (https://tokeneconomy.co/). I think it is extremely good at separating the signal from the noise. Highly recommend.

2. Twitter is unfortunately indeed the easiest place to follow what's going on. Naval Ravikant, the founder of AngelList, recently published a list of the people he follows in the space (https://twitter.com/naval/lists/crypto/members). It has a large overlap with my own list, but neither he nor I endorse everyone's views that are on it. But it probably includes most of the active developers, VCs and thought leaders in the space.

Re: Why I find IOTA alarming

#38
post #28
post #2

I feel like I'm missing one side of the story. I don't know much about IOTA but from what I learned reading articles linked on HN today IOTA: - Uses custom "ternary" crypto which has been shown to have vulnerabilities in the past. - Has software that doesn't include the basic function of generating wallet addresses, instead having some users rely on shady 3rd party websites and getting their coins stolen. - Does away…

Their argument for using ternary is that it is 8 times more efficient than binary and it is very important for iot devices which need to be have low energy consumption and a long life. Whereas the conversation from ternary to binary would add only a 10 % additional usage. They are trying to push the ternary to see if adoption can take off. All it needs is a few thousand logic gates on any traditional chip.if it doesn…

> 8 times more efficient than binary

They're claiming this, for what operation? And similar question for the 10% usage claim.

I suspect storage will be the same when you get done packing into machine words and storing those, yes? Unless they're not using all the bits in a word...

Any independent references for ternary efficiencies for any operation?

Re: Why I find IOTA alarming

#39
post #2

I feel like I'm missing one side of the story. I don't know much about IOTA but from what I learned reading articles linked on HN today IOTA: - Uses custom "ternary" crypto which has been shown to have vulnerabilities in the past. - Has software that doesn't include the basic function of generating wallet addresses, instead having some users rely on shady 3rd party websites and getting their coins stolen. - Does away…

[deleted]

Re: Why I find IOTA alarming

#40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

BitConnect, a literal Ponzi scheme that was repeatedly flagged to newbies as a Ponzi scheme they should avoid, had a $2.5 billion market cap last month before collapsing. While IOTA boosters probably have a story they believe that justifies the hype in their mind, just because it’s worth $6 billion in this market doesn’t mean they necessarily have a good one. For what it’s worth, of all the crypto people I follow tha…

OT: who are the crypto people you follow? And on which channels? Twitter seems sadly popular among this crowd. Sadly because it lends itself to flamewars.

Cryptos lend themselves to flamewars, no twitter or anything else needed. You have a bunch of people who are trying to get rich quick while on average not understanding much about the underlying technology. Try to have a technical discussion on any crypto enthusiast forum and see how well it goes. In my experience it turns really ugly really quickly.

In general I give up after I get the first "you don't know what you're talking about" without any kind of actual argument behind it. Note that you find several of these in the comments of TFA:

>i find it deeply alarming everybody and their graindma has to write bad stuff about iota without beeing informed themselves enough.

>I learned a lot today, but not from this article. The comment section has some good information.

>you’re way too late for the fud party.

>Wow…another clear case of awesome journalism. Another case of the misinformed trying to mislead people with another mudslinging article.

>Just a question: does it ever occur to you to pick up the phone and may get in touch with someone who actually knows the topic at hand before writing this kind of garbage…say the IOTA…

Truly enlightening.

I love this comment too: https://medium.com/@dfalkman/i-think-this-article-sums-the-p...

>The bottom line is that IOTA is embarking on something new. Like a lot of things in crypto, it is theoretical and academic and working towards becoming practical. It is very early.

Then:

>We all rise together, so we should more encouraging of one another’s endeavors in crypto and blockchain. IMO these concerns would have been best voiced in the IOTA slack channel instead of on the interwebs for all to FUD about.

In other words: it's experimental academic endeavor but don't criticize it publicly because it hinders my ability to pump it.

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