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Becoming a Lawyer Without Going to Law School (2015)

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Re: Becoming a Lawyer Without Going to Law School (2015)

#51

Post by geebee »

haikuginger wrote: post #47
brightball wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You still have to have an accredited BS in engineering or science to take it. I assumed a degree from an accredited school would fit the bill but found out that was not the case when I wanted to take the patent bar years ago. You have to check the website to see if your degree qualifies. I have a BS in Computer Information Systems which is almost identical to the CS degree that I could have gotten. The difference was…

You can also choose to pass the FE exam to qualify for the patent bar; most states require a BS in engineering to take the FE exam, but not all, and an FE pass in a state that doesn't still qualifies.

There are also various combinations of coursework that qualify (x semester hours of physics, y semester hours of engineering or chemistry, etc...). It's in the patent exam application docs.

One interesting and controversial one is that mathematics courses are excluded from patent prep (i.e., mathematics is specifically excluded from the list of courses that qualify you for the patent bar[1]).

https://www.math.utah.edu/~palais/grb.pdf

https://www.math.utah.edu/~palais/usptovsmath.html

[1] perhaps this is why mathematics dressed up as something else often gets patented, because the patent bar specifically and deliberately excludes people with strong math backgrounds from the profession.

Re: Becoming a Lawyer Without Going to Law School (2015)

#52

Post by geebee »

ckastner wrote: post #20
Larrikin wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you're implying a lawyer plays no role?

The power to put people behind bars solely rests with the judge and jury. The prosecutor, by definition, played a role in the process, but it's not the deciding role.

depending on the circumstances, I do think a prosecutor can play a pivotal role. There are examples of misconduct where a prosecutor fails to turn over exculpatory evidence that is so convincing as to make prosecution essentially impossible. It's true that the jury and judge make the decision, but there are cases where they would almost certainly have reached a different decision had the prosecution behaved ethically.

Re: Becoming a Lawyer Without Going to Law School (2015)

#54

Post by meddlepal »

anfilt wrote: post #18

While the American Bar Association certainly dose not use violence the whole system stinks like a protection racket. The fact they pushed states to enact a form regulatory capture is pretty messed up. Then add the fact apprenticeships are not the norm so these lawyers are not making as much. Overall, it's quite silly and sad.

Yes it's terrible the ABA has created a system that rigorously weeds out unqualified individuals, polices it's professional members ethics and uses education and testing to ensure all lawyers have a solid baseline education. Terrible!

I wish software engineerers had an actual equivalent to the ABA, and no the ACM doesn't count.

Re: Becoming a Lawyer Without Going to Law School (2015)

#55

Post by coupdejarnac »

haikuginger wrote: post #47
brightball wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You still have to have an accredited BS in engineering or science to take it. I assumed a degree from an accredited school would fit the bill but found out that was not the case when I wanted to take the patent bar years ago. You have to check the website to see if your degree qualifies. I have a BS in Computer Information Systems which is almost identical to the CS degree that I could have gotten. The difference was…

You can also choose to pass the FE exam to qualify for the patent bar; most states require a BS in engineering to take the FE exam, but not all, and an FE pass in a state that doesn't still qualifies.

Yeah, some of the requirements do not seem well thought out. I've passed the EIT and PE exams but not the FE exam. I have two engineering degrees, but let's say I had a math degree.(If I recall correctly you can take the EIT/FE/PE with hard science or math degrees.) I wouldn't qualify for the patent exam. That said, all these licensing exams are about jumping through hoops- find out the requirements, and finish them.

Re: Becoming a Lawyer Without Going to Law School (2015)

#56

Post by brudgers »

coupdejarnac wrote: post #10

My cousin, who is a former K St lawyer, told me about how in the 80s(?), Texas passed a law that allowed people who fit very narrow requirements to take the bar exam without attending law school. One high profile businessman passed the bar exam this way. So.. If you want to skip law school, have one of your legislator cronies slip in a law school loophole in a bill. Non-lawyers are allowed to take the patent bar exam…

This is because professional licensing occurs at the state level in the US. While there are legal credentials at the Federal level, there are not Law Licenses. The same is true of CPA's and the IRS has a test/certification for Enrolled Agents that have the equivalent status of CPA's in terms of representing clients in tax matters.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enrolled_agent

Re: Becoming a Lawyer Without Going to Law School (2015)

#57

Post by jachee »

meddlepal wrote: post #54
anfilt wrote: post #18

While the American Bar Association certainly dose not use violence the whole system stinks like a protection racket. The fact they pushed states to enact a form regulatory capture is pretty messed up. Then add the fact apprenticeships are not the norm so these lawyers are not making as much. Overall, it's quite silly and sad.

Yes it's terrible the ABA has created a system that rigorously weeds out unqualified individuals, polices it's professional members ethics and uses education and testing to ensure all lawyers have a solid baseline education. Terrible! I wish software engineerers had an actual equivalent to the ABA, and no the ACM doesn't count.

All of those things would be fine, if there wasn't an explicit financial barrier that also weeds out otherwise-well-qualified individuals.

Re: Becoming a Lawyer Without Going to Law School (2015)

#59

Post by VanL »

senatorobama wrote: post #53

Who has switched from Software Engineering to Law? I'm considering it because of the lack of women in software engineering, and the multitudes in Law.

I did, although I have never really given up engineering. Happy to help if you have questions. See my email in my profile.

Re: Becoming a Lawyer Without Going to Law School (2015)

#60

Post by atwebb »

senatorobama wrote: post #53

Who has switched from Software Engineering to Law? I'm considering it because of the lack of women in software engineering, and the multitudes in Law.

Well, Senator....

I'm neither a lawyer nor female, I am married to someone who is both and considered law initially (family of them). Are you missing working companionship or feel pushed out as a female in SW? Is there a specific type of law you'd like to go into, similar to medicine or even software, there's many many different paths.

Best of luck, curious why you're looking at switching, I still flirt with it sometimes. Personally, I think the unreasonableness of some of the dealings/proceedings would irk me too much. It is very interesting though and the lawyers I know genuinely help better other people's lives, directly, while making a decent living.

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