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Qubes Air: Generalizing the Qubes Architecture

qubes-os.org

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Re: Qubes Air: Generalizing the Qubes Architecture

#21

Post by masklinn »

robryk wrote: post #16
mirimir wrote: post #2

This is interesting. However, I don't get how stuff in the cloud can be considered secure. Unless you trust them, anyway. And also, I'm reminded how little privacy seems to matter for Qubes devs. Edit: OK, I take it back. Replacing VMs with discrete devices on local networks is very cool. I just wish that they'd emphasized that, and then talked about using cloud resources. Indeed, what boggled my mind is that someone…

You can put the untrusted VMs in the cloud, to get better isolation between them and more important stuff. This, e.g., is a way of preventing two colluding VMs from communicating.

That's a very interesting take, you can run local network for trusted qubes and put more risky/untrusted qubes on "cloud" VMs, that way you strongly mitigate colluding VMs (same-machine & same-network) and VM excursion attacks on your hypervisors & physical machines.

Re: Qubes Air: Generalizing the Qubes Architecture

#22

Post by hawski »

kakarot wrote: post #19

This was an awesome read. These guys are doing some of the most groundbreaking work in computing right now. The idea of having an "operating system" made up of components dispersed across the globe seems like a fantasy that is too good to be true. If Qubes can finally provide a method for passing through NVIDIA GPUs with this kind of architecture, Xen or not, that would be incredible. It's the only reason I had to le…

It did not help Plan 9 to conquer the world.

I found a good introduction to Plan 9 architecture in this comment:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15989697#15990077

Re: Qubes Air: Generalizing the Qubes Architecture

#23

Post by blattimwind »

viraptor wrote: post #20
weinzierl wrote: post #10

I‘m a heavy user of Qubes OS. The “Convert to Tusted PDF” feature is something I use almost daily. My use case is examining, cleaning and possibly distributing application letters and CVs. If you have to read job application letters, the advice to just open files from people you trust, just doesn’t work. The amount of untargeted malware we receive through this channel is considerable. We had targeted attacks too. I’v…

Have you considered a jailed pdf reader application instead? I'm curious what the decision factors were important for you.

So everyone downstream of weinzierl has to be aware that (1) the PDFs he hands them may be full of malware (2) have to use VMs (3) must open said malware-packed PDFs in a disposable VM (4) must strictly adhere to D-VM usage protocol.

Re: Qubes Air: Generalizing the Qubes Architecture

#25

Post by eptcyka »

kakarot wrote: post #19

This was an awesome read. These guys are doing some of the most groundbreaking work in computing right now. The idea of having an "operating system" made up of components dispersed across the globe seems like a fantasy that is too good to be true. If Qubes can finally provide a method for passing through NVIDIA GPUs with this kind of architecture, Xen or not, that would be incredible. It's the only reason I had to le…

Passing through GPUs is problematic, as it's a massive attack surface.

Re: Qubes Air: Generalizing the Qubes Architecture

#26

Post by Cthulhu_ »

kakarot wrote: post #19

This was an awesome read. These guys are doing some of the most groundbreaking work in computing right now. The idea of having an "operating system" made up of components dispersed across the globe seems like a fantasy that is too good to be true. If Qubes can finally provide a method for passing through NVIDIA GPUs with this kind of architecture, Xen or not, that would be incredible. It's the only reason I had to le…

Why would you want something like that though? What are the benefits that are worth the huge amount of overhead of having to pass through the internet to connect components?

I mean I get cloud computing and such, but this seems to be aimed as a consumer OS, which is very sensitive to delays and whatnot.

Re: Qubes Air: Generalizing the Qubes Architecture

#27

Post by pikchurn »

kakarot wrote: post #19

This was an awesome read. These guys are doing some of the most groundbreaking work in computing right now. The idea of having an "operating system" made up of components dispersed across the globe seems like a fantasy that is too good to be true. If Qubes can finally provide a method for passing through NVIDIA GPUs with this kind of architecture, Xen or not, that would be incredible. It's the only reason I had to le…

> The idea of having an "operating system" made up of components dispersed across the globe seems like a fantasy that is too good to be true.

Read up on Amoeba and Sprite in the 80's.

Re: Qubes Air: Generalizing the Qubes Architecture

#28

Post by effie »

eptcyka wrote: post #25
kakarot wrote: post #19

This was an awesome read. These guys are doing some of the most groundbreaking work in computing right now. The idea of having an "operating system" made up of components dispersed across the globe seems like a fantasy that is too good to be true. If Qubes can finally provide a method for passing through NVIDIA GPUs with this kind of architecture, Xen or not, that would be incredible. It's the only reason I had to le…

Passing through GPUs is problematic, as it's a massive attack surface.

Could you elaborate on the 'massive'? Let's say you let the VM see the GPU. What kind of attack would that enable? Let's suppose that a virus inside VM manipulates GPU outside of what applications are allowed to do. What worst thing could happen?

Re: Qubes Air: Generalizing the Qubes Architecture

#29

Post by rectang »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #26
kakarot wrote: post #19

This was an awesome read. These guys are doing some of the most groundbreaking work in computing right now. The idea of having an "operating system" made up of components dispersed across the globe seems like a fantasy that is too good to be true. If Qubes can finally provide a method for passing through NVIDIA GPUs with this kind of architecture, Xen or not, that would be incredible. It's the only reason I had to le…

Why would you want something like that though? What are the benefits that are worth the huge amount of overhead of having to pass through the internet to connect components? I mean I get cloud computing and such, but this seems to be aimed as a consumer OS, which is very sensitive to delays and whatnot.

One reason: the prospect of an endless stream of unpatchable Spectre-like hardware vulnerabilities.

The "real problem" exposed by Meltdown and Spectre is running untrusted software on the same hardware where sensitive information resides. Moving away from physical coupling defends against potential sidechannel attacks.

The Qubes approach of "careful decomposition of various workflows, devices, apps across securely compartmentalized containers" seems to point a way forward after this sobering assessment:

http://robert.ocallahan.org/2018/01/long-term-consequences-o...

Re: Qubes Air: Generalizing the Qubes Architecture

#30

Post by [deleted] »

rectang wrote: post #29
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you want something like that though? What are the benefits that are worth the huge amount of overhead of having to pass through the internet to connect components? I mean I get cloud computing and such, but this seems to be aimed as a consumer OS, which is very sensitive to delays and whatnot.

One reason: the prospect of an endless stream of unpatchable Spectre-like hardware vulnerabilities. The "real problem" exposed by Meltdown and Spectre is running untrusted software on the same hardware where sensitive information resides. Moving away from physical coupling defends against potential sidechannel attacks. The Qubes approach of "careful decomposition of various workflows, devices, apps across securely co…

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