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Becoming a Lawyer Without Going to Law School (2015)

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Re: Becoming a Lawyer Without Going to Law School (2015)

#21

Post by arethuza »

hacknat wrote: post #7

Lawyers currently have one of the most bi-modal salary distributions of any profession. It seems to me that for folks who want to enter the profession doing low pay work that this should be a more supported and common path as law school is a ridiculous choice for someone who is going to make less than a teacher for the rest of their life. I’ve known a handful of public defenders in my time and almost all of them had…

"Barristers have a more arduous path"

That's not true in Scotland - solicitors have two years of on the job training after a law degree and a postgraduate qualification. Training to become an advocate (Scottish equivalent of a barrister) takes a year as a "devil" which means passing some extra exams and basically following a senior junior (or two) about for most of a year and you can do that after a single year of training as a solicitor.

During this phase you are an "advocate's devil".

Source - my wife was called to the Scottish bar - which is an amusing ceremony in itself (no clapping, only stamping of feet).

Re: Becoming a Lawyer Without Going to Law School (2015)

#22

Post by function_seven »

rahimnathwani wrote: post #19
ClintEhrlich wrote: post #8

While becoming a lawyer without going to law school, I exonerated an innocent man who was serving life in prison for murder. That man was put behind bars by an incompetent prosecutor... who had become a lawyer without going to law school. (Seriously.)

It's a prosecutor's job to get someone convicted. So, given they succeeded, why do you consider them incompetent? Perhaps the innocent man's own lawyer (defender) was incompetent?

> It's a prosecutor's job to get someone convicted.

It's their job to seek justice. May seem like a distinction without a difference, but it's a crucial one.

http://www.henrycty.com/Departments/States-Attorney/The-Role...

https://sidebarsblog.com/prosecutorial-misconduct-spiderman-...

Re: Becoming a Lawyer Without Going to Law School (2015)

#24

Post by pmyteh »

hacknat wrote: post #7

Lawyers currently have one of the most bi-modal salary distributions of any profession. It seems to me that for folks who want to enter the profession doing low pay work that this should be a more supported and common path as law school is a ridiculous choice for someone who is going to make less than a teacher for the rest of their life. I’ve known a handful of public defenders in my time and almost all of them had…

The barrister/solicitor split is theoretically that between litigation (solicitor) and advocacy (barrister). If you're a commercial solicitor working in the city it's very much not a second-best option and is very lucrative. Solicitors do advocacy in the lower courts, but it's theoretically not the main focus of their job.

You're right that it's generally harder to fully qualify as a barrister, though [edit: in England and Wales]: there's a compulsory year-long practical training in a law firm element, which is murderous to try to get a spot in.

The distinction's actually eroding in the UK. Solicitors can train in advocacy and get rights of audience in the higher courts, and barristers can now be instructed directly by the public (which used to be illegal: their client was always a solicitor).

Re: Becoming a Lawyer Without Going to Law School (2015)

#25

Post by icelancer »

coupdejarnac wrote: post #10

My cousin, who is a former K St lawyer, told me about how in the 80s(?), Texas passed a law that allowed people who fit very narrow requirements to take the bar exam without attending law school. One high profile businessman passed the bar exam this way. So.. If you want to skip law school, have one of your legislator cronies slip in a law school loophole in a bill. Non-lawyers are allowed to take the patent bar exam…

>> You get the designation of patent agent. That's what I plan to do- become one of the few licensed engineers that has also passed the patent bar.

These people often get called as expert witnesses in IP-related cases and get paid a huge amount of money. I am sure you know this, but it's definitely something to investigate.

Re: Becoming a Lawyer Without Going to Law School (2015)

#26

Post by arethuza »

pmyteh wrote: post #24
hacknat wrote: post #7

Lawyers currently have one of the most bi-modal salary distributions of any profession. It seems to me that for folks who want to enter the profession doing low pay work that this should be a more supported and common path as law school is a ridiculous choice for someone who is going to make less than a teacher for the rest of their life. I’ve known a handful of public defenders in my time and almost all of them had…

The barrister/solicitor split is theoretically that between litigation (solicitor) and advocacy (barrister). If you're a commercial solicitor working in the city it's very much not a second-best option and is very lucrative. Solicitors do advocacy in the lower courts, but it's theoretically not the main focus of their job. You're right that it's generally harder to fully qualify as a barrister, though [edit: in Engla…

"Solicitors can train in advocacy and get rights of audience in the higher courts"

Solicitors who do get the right of audience apparently don't appear as much as you'd expect - solicitors still use barristers/advocates to offload risk on high value cases.

Re: Becoming a Lawyer Without Going to Law School (2015)

#27

Post by [deleted] »

anfilt wrote: post #18

While the American Bar Association certainly dose not use violence the whole system stinks like a protection racket. The fact they pushed states to enact a form regulatory capture is pretty messed up. Then add the fact apprenticeships are not the norm so these lawyers are not making as much. Overall, it's quite silly and sad.

[deleted]

Re: Becoming a Lawyer Without Going to Law School (2015)

#28

Post by pseingatl »

First, this article only addresses the USA. If you don't want to practice in the US, there are lots of options. See Korshak, Landing a Legal Job Overseas. Law school is an American anomaly. In Canada/UK/Ireland, you can major in law as an undergraduate. You can't do so in the US. With a LLB degree, you can do legal work in lots of countries--and even qualify to take the bar in the U.S. The author leaves out little details like the "diploma privilege" in Mississippi and other Southern states--but never Florida--if you graduated from a state law school there was no need to take the bar exam. And during WWII time in law school was reduced or relaxed.

Re: Becoming a Lawyer Without Going to Law School (2015)

#29

Post by rahimnathwani »

function_seven wrote: post #22
rahimnathwani wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a prosecutor's job to get someone convicted. So, given they succeeded, why do you consider them incompetent? Perhaps the innocent man's own lawyer (defender) was incompetent?

> It's a prosecutor's job to get someone convicted. It's their job to seek justice. May seem like a distinction without a difference, but it's a crucial one. http://www.henrycty.com/Departments/States-Attorney/The-Role... https://sidebarsblog.com/prosecutorial-misconduct-spiderman-...

From your link:

"It is as much his duty to refrain from improper methods calculated to produce a wrongful conviction as it is to use every legitimate means to bring about a just one."

Assuming the prosecutor believed the man to be guilty, and that the prosecutor didn't use improper methods to secure a conviction, I'd say they were competent.

Now, if they used _improper methods _to secure the conviction of an innocent man, or if they knew the man to be innocent, that's another matter. I'd agree that the prosecutor is in incompetent (in the sense of "not fit to be a officer of the court", and not in the sense of "not having the skills required to do the job").

But the post to which I replied made no mention of this evil intent, so I gave the prosecutor the benefit of the doubt.

Re: Becoming a Lawyer Without Going to Law School (2015)

#30

Post by icelancer »

rsbartram wrote: post #9

That is something I've dream of but in California that is not possible from the research I've done. I live in Los Angeles county. If someone knows something otherwise please let me know. Thanks Rich

What? It literally says that it's possible in California in the article.

"In California, this option is called the “Law Office Study Program” (rule 4.29 under the state bar’s legal code). All lawyers seeking to forego law school must meet the following stipulations..."

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