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After Surgery in Germany, I Wanted Vicodin, Not Herbal Tea

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111–120 of 421 posts

Re: After Surgery in Germany, I Wanted Vicodin, Not Herbal Tea

#111
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you buy Ibuprofen in stores or do you need a prescription? In the US most stores have a big aisle with painkillers.

In Germany you can buy it at a pharmacy, you generally can't obtain medicine at a normal store. Direct consumer advertisement of drugs is also illegal in Germany. (I think there's only 3 or 4 countries on the planet where this isn't the case)

> Direct consumer advertisement of drugs is also illegal in Germany.

Only for prescription drugs ("verschreibungspflichtig"), so no "ask your doctor if XYZ is right for you" bullshit.

Non-prescription drugs ("apothekenpflichtig") are heavily advertised in pharmacies, sometimes on billboards, and on TV. Most TV ads for drugs are running on ARD and ZDF [1] since that's what old people watch.

[1] Though only between 18:00 and 20:00, which is when the public broadcasters are allowed to air ads.

Re: After Surgery in Germany, I Wanted Vicodin, Not Herbal Tea

#112

There was a study at Mass General Hospital studying if pre-surgery carb loading reduced the need for post-op narcotics. (Not sure what the outcome was.)

Aren't they worried about the patient vomiting and choking? I had a dental implant done at the end of last year and I wasn't supposed to eat anything before surgery.

The one participant I know of was told to chug a lot of Gatorade the day before, and a little bit the day of (IIRC). The main restriction on the Gatorade (aside from quantity) was which colors were acceptable. Apparently some colors make it hard for surgeons to differentiate blood from residual bowel content.

Although he had the surgery circa 2014 and the stated purpose was to study the need to avoid opioids, not to reduce hospital stay. But like the 2006 study someone cited earlier, it was colon surgery.

Re: After Surgery in Germany, I Wanted Vicodin, Not Herbal Tea

#113
post #21

> "After my surgery, I had to pay 25€ for the taxi ride home" I'll take that over the multi-million US-american hospital bill, any time.

You mean, $30,000 to $40,000, the median cost in the US, nearly all of which would be covered by insurance. No sense in fabricating magical numbers, like a multi-million dollar bill, everyone knows the flaws in the US system as is. It costs about 1/3 to 1/2 as much in Germany, paid for by other tax payers.

It's not paid by taxes but by health insurance. We have both a private and a semi-public system (managed by "Krankenkassen", independent insurance entities, that compete for members; it's... complicated, but less so than in the US, and it does not depend on the employer).

Some might say it's like a tax, it gets deducted from your paycheck, but then that's the same everywhere, including the US. Difference is that it's managed by independent entities and not the government, and they even compete. The private insurances are quite significant in Germany too. You are allowed to leave the government-mandated "Krankenkassen" if you earn over a certain amount of money per year, then you have to get private insurance - which is less expensive if you are young, but unlike the Krankenkasse family members (e.g. non.working spouse, children) are not included and it may become much more expensive when you get older, it's hard to predict because it depends on many factors including if you picked the right insurance company (that didn't lose as much money and now has to raise prices).

Re: After Surgery in Germany, I Wanted Vicodin, Not Herbal Tea

#114
post #74
post #7

I had jaw surgery recently... while I wouldn't describe it as incredibly "painful", particularly since everything was numb (they have to slice through nerves for this procedure), it was really uncomfortable and stressful for a couple of days afterwards. I wasn't at all ashamed to take percocet after the surgery. Could I have lived without them? Sure. Did they turn me into an instant addict? Of course not. This story…

"Did they turn me into an instant addict? Of course not." That's the case for you but others are more prone to addiction. My girlfriend some years ago had a surgery and got opiates afterward. The pain was gone a after a few days but it took a lot of convincing and almost force to make her stop with the opiates. This stuff is really addictive for some.

It must be. I've had Vicodin a few times, and found it had had no effect other than pain relief. There was no experience of a "high" or euphoria. I have never finished a prescription, as it simply stops occurring to me to take it once the pain is gone.

Re: After Surgery in Germany, I Wanted Vicodin, Not Herbal Tea

#115
post #11

"I took two ibuprofens that first day. In hindsight, I didn’t need them, but I felt like I should take something" I have noticed the need to "take something" with a lot of American friends when they have problem. It's almost like a reflex.

> I have noticed the need to "take something" with a lot of American friends when they have problem. It's almost like a reflex. I have a friend who was in an accident and required emergency surgery. She happens to be a drug addict who is no longer involved in drugs (we do not say 'former' drug addict as there is no such thing). Even though she put in her intake form "DRUG ADDICT" in bold letters and told them, they s…

It's such a strange bimodal distribution, among people I know - there are those who take preposterous numbers of painkillers on a semi-regular basis, and those who won't take an OTC painkiller except under duress when they're on the edge of blacking out from the pain.

I do think a great many people either overprescribe or are overly dependent on painkillers, opioid and otherwise, but there's also many different kinds of pain. I have a fairly high pain tolerance for most things, but certain kinds of acute pain, mouth pain or the warning pain of a migraine immediately disrupt my ability to concentrate usefully, which can be problematic when you need to concentrate to resolve the source of the pain.

There's also a weird thing where a good number of people I've known have regularly taken well in excess of the maximum safe dosage (even for Rx) of painkillers for days or weeks every month, and not think this is something they should bring up with their doctor. If this were "I talked to the doctor and made this choice based on X information," I wouldn't be as surprised, but it just never crossed their minds that it was abnormal to have crippling pain on a recurring basis.

In the US, I recently had two teeth removed that had horrendous infections (the swelling was tremendous); after the surgery, I asked them about painkillers, and they told me I wouldn't need them, just take ibuprofen if the pain gets bad and it'll go away in a day or so. I was skeptical but listened, and much to my surprise, the pain did almost magically vanish after I went to sleep that night.

AIUI the reason they still tried opiate painkillers is that there aren't really many non-opioid alternatives available other than the OTC stuff - and the effectiveness of both types varies wildly by person, but since the distribution is wider for the opioids, on average you're more likely to get pain relief from it. (My brother, for example, gets almost no benefit from any non-IV opioid painkiller, whereas if I take a single hydrocodone I'm both pain-free and borderline asleep.)

It'd be nice if we could find ways of relieving crippling pain without risk of physiological addiction, but so far, I don't think I've seen much compelling research toward that.

Re: After Surgery in Germany, I Wanted Vicodin, Not Herbal Tea

#116

Heroin was initially marketed as a non-addictive version of morphine. It was challenged by experts on the spot. But Bayer promoted it in ads as a remedy against cough and cold for children regardless. [1] In some sense they weren't first to come up with the idea - TIL ancient Egyptians used opium to stop children crying. [2] Anyway, IMO the real wtf is drug companies being allowed to advertise prescription drugs in t…

I am always reminded of this TV ad[0] where the side effects take up more than 90% of the ad time.

0.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hp_y0wDFz0

Re: After Surgery in Germany, I Wanted Vicodin, Not Herbal Tea

#117

I have no doubt that pills are overused, and Europe is a rather ahead of America in terms of natural remedies and a less pill-pushing approach. That said, doctors should take care: the only thing worse than overprescribing necessary medications is underprescribing them.

> the only thing worse than overprescribing necessary medications is underprescribing them.

There are only three categories: overprescribing, underpresribing, and prescribing the correct amount.

In the case of opioid-based painkillers, overprescribing leads to unnecessary addiction, in turn leading to heroin or fentaynl abuse, breakup of families, overdose, etc.

If you’re underprescribed opioid painkillers, you just feel temporary pain (or not, since non-opioid painkillers exist).

So, they’re not even really close in terms of long term consequences.

Re: After Surgery in Germany, I Wanted Vicodin, Not Herbal Tea

#118
post #27
post #11

"I took two ibuprofens that first day. In hindsight, I didn’t need them, but I felt like I should take something" I have noticed the need to "take something" with a lot of American friends when they have problem. It's almost like a reflex.

This make me think: Could this behaviour be influenced by US-american pharma corporations being allowed to run (TV-)ads on prescription medications ?

I think this is probably quite accurate. Looking at tv in various countries, they just don't have the pill advertisements like America does. ask your doctor about...

Re: After Surgery in Germany, I Wanted Vicodin, Not Herbal Tea

#119
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anecdotally, it's fairly prevalent in Europe as well. Living in Europe, I know just as many Europeans who pop ibuprofen like candy compared to Americans.

Can you buy Ibuprofen in stores or do you need a prescription? In the US most stores have a big aisle with painkillers.

In the UK, you can buy a pack of 16 generic Ibuprofen tablets at the supermarket for as little as £0.25 ($0.35, €0.28). Similarly, Aspirin can be bought for as little £0.45 for a pack of 16 tablets.

Re: After Surgery in Germany, I Wanted Vicodin, Not Herbal Tea

#120
post #21

> "After my surgery, I had to pay 25€ for the taxi ride home" I'll take that over the multi-million US-american hospital bill, any time.

I don't know a single person that doesn't want to spend less money on anything...

As a counterpoint, charities are a thing.
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