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The U.S. Can No Longer Hide from Its Deep Poverty Problem

nytimes.com

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Re: The U.S. Can No Longer Hide from Its Deep Poverty Problem

#131

Post by kevingadd »

frgtpsswrdlame wrote: post #122
kevingadd wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Diversity is a completely different subject from poverty. They're both subjects worth addressing. Poor black people in the deep south and poor white people in the deep south still live different experiences even if they're both having a hard time. Rich african americans get treated differently from rich white people. This isn't a contest. We need to fix everything.

>This isn't a contest. Isn't it though? I mean to a certain extent policy and even corporate 'diversity initiatives' are a matter of priority - first we even the ground for women, then minorities, then maybe gender id is next? I don't see the Ivy League rushing to ensure that their campus maintains wealth-diversity in the same way they ensure racial diversity. Maybe we really do need an Oppression Olympics, then we c…

If your diversity initiative isn't providing all the different types of diversity you're looking for, you either expand it or start new initiatives.

It's worthwhile to push your company (or university)'s race balance closer into alignment with the overall population's, and it's also worthwhile to try and strike a reasonable gender balance, in hopes that you're not locking people out of opportunities based on race or gender. It's also worthwhile to make sure there are opportunities for people from lower-income backgrounds.

The fact that some people are "losers" in this society (by modern capitalism's nature as a contest to see who can accumulate the most wealth at the expense of others) doesn't mean that diversity initiatives have to be a contest. You can run diversity initiatives with the goal of helping people who are otherwise excluded, and one of those can absolutely be aimed at helping people from low-income backgrounds.

Likewise, once someone is in the workplace, they might still need help. Maybe your standard pay scale isn't enough for a single parent with 4 kids, because he doesn't have affordable access to childcare services for his kids. Maybe one of your employees is wheelchair-bound and you could make it a lot easier for her to stay at your company if you adjusted the office floor-plan so it's easier for her to navigate.

Laws and regulations are (at least sometimes) built with this in mind, but the results will be way better if you tackle these issues directly instead of getting forced to do it by government decree.

Re: The U.S. Can No Longer Hide from Its Deep Poverty Problem

#132

Post by sp332 »

frgtpsswrdlame wrote: post #122
kevingadd wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Diversity is a completely different subject from poverty. They're both subjects worth addressing. Poor black people in the deep south and poor white people in the deep south still live different experiences even if they're both having a hard time. Rich african americans get treated differently from rich white people. This isn't a contest. We need to fix everything.

>This isn't a contest. Isn't it though? I mean to a certain extent policy and even corporate 'diversity initiatives' are a matter of priority - first we even the ground for women, then minorities, then maybe gender id is next? I don't see the Ivy League rushing to ensure that their campus maintains wealth-diversity in the same way they ensure racial diversity. Maybe we really do need an Oppression Olympics, then we c…

I think the point is to get rid of the hierarchy altogether. If you don't have a system of oppression, you don't need to argue over who to point it at.

Re: The U.S. Can No Longer Hide from Its Deep Poverty Problem

#133

Post by the-dude »

Retric wrote: post #124
Leader2light wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does it even mean any more to be "for immigration"! At what point do you feel the USA will have enough immigrants? It's already a nation of immigrants!

Without immigration the US population would be shrinking. So, we need an endless supply of new immigrants to avoid a host of problems now facing Japan. Second we directly befit from a mix of immigrants from all nations.

And at the same time brain-draining developing nations. You gotta stay on top.

Re: The U.S. Can No Longer Hide from Its Deep Poverty Problem

#134

Post by somecontext »

bcatanzaro wrote: post #17

I don’t understand how this is possible. We have a lot of programs to help people - food assistance, housing and health care assistance, disability... Are these benefits being counted when we say they live on $4/day?

The short answer is probably "no".

Another comment https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16231191 tried to even find the source of the number, more or less unsuccessfully. The purported origin of the statistic is the Current Population Survey, which has the following comments on "Income": "Data on consumer income collected in the CPS by the Census Bureau cover money income received (exclusive of certain money receipts such as capital gains) before payments for personal income taxes, Social Security, union dues, Medicare deductions, etc. Also, money income does not reflect the fact that some households receive part of their income in the form of non-money transfers such as food stamps, health benefits, subsidized housing, and energy assistance; that many farm households receive non-money income in the form of rent free housing and goods produced and consumed on the farm; or that non-money income is received by some nonfarm residents that often takes the form of the use of business transportation and facilities, or full or partial contributions for retirement programs, medical and educational expenses, etc. These elements should be considered when com-paring income levels. Moreover, readers should be aware that for many different reasons there is a tendency in household surveys for respondents to under report their income. From an analysis of independently derived income estimates, it has been determined that wages and salaries tend to be much better reported than such income types as public assistance, Social Security, and net income from interest, dividends, rents, etc."

The Census Bureau excludes capital gains/losses, noncash benefits, and tax credits in its usual measures of poverty: https://www.census.gov/topics/income-poverty/poverty/guidanc...

If we had a Universal Basic Income in the United States delivered through the IRS, the Census Bureau and its poverty rate might not notice.

Re: The U.S. Can No Longer Hide from Its Deep Poverty Problem

#135

Post by sabujp »

jamesblonde wrote: post #6

This video from Anaheim (California) is reminiscent of travelling around Dehli (from 39' in - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KF7hWzqdPDk ). The level/amount of poverty in this video is shocking.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wctpI_QnHqo

Re: The U.S. Can No Longer Hide from Its Deep Poverty Problem

#136

Post by vec »

Leader2light wrote: post #106
Retric wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am for immigration, it's just the pseudo indentured servitude that is H1B that I have a problem with. As to factory outsourcing, I think it's overall a net gain for humanity. Long term there is a finite number of countries and barring societal collapse eventually they will all end up 'developed'. It simply exposes other problems in the US like our horrible social safety net and endemic corruption. So, a small ~2-5%…

What does it even mean any more to be "for immigration"! At what point do you feel the USA will have enough immigrants? It's already a nation of immigrants!

> At what point do you feel the USA will have enough immigrants?

When net migration into and out of the US approaches zero. Until that point it's about how fast we can acculturate newcomers, which judging from history is "pretty damn fast".

Re: The U.S. Can No Longer Hide from Its Deep Poverty Problem

#137

Post by RandomTisk »

sidlls wrote: post #76
yters wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It certainly looks bad to our eyes. But, beggars in Dehli would probably love to live in that sort of tent city, and have access to all the benefits available to the poor in the US.

This sort of comparison is terrible because it trivializes the miserable existence of our impoverished and implies they should be thankful they aren't "beggars in Dehli."

It doesn't imply anything, it flat out says it, being poor in America is vastly more comfortable and healthy than Dehli. Notice he didn't say "So don't worry about our poor at all.", just put it into perspective. The facts are, if you want to help the most unfortunate human beings, they're more likely to be in Dehli.

Re: The U.S. Can No Longer Hide from Its Deep Poverty Problem

#138

Post by randomdata »

tangent128 wrote: post #119
randomdata wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I struggle to see what is inherently bestowed upon a new born child beyond life itself? The child may eventually be given things, but that's not the same thing as what we are talking about. Some examples of how it is clearly wrong would be useful, because there is nothing clear about it to me.

If the question is "why some are able to flourish, while others continue with nothing indefinitely", then the fact that some children are given $millions in liquid assets where others are lucky to be given food and clothing would certainly seen germane.

But that is outside what someone starts with. When a child is born, those millions will be originally held in the same of someone else (perhaps the parents, grandparents, whoever). It may be transferred to the child, but it remains that the child started with nothing.

On the question of why some flourish and others do not, I think you're just echoing the point that has persisted through this entire thread.

Re: The U.S. Can No Longer Hide from Its Deep Poverty Problem

#139

Post by d--b »

Mmmh, they say they adjust the poverty threshold based on actual needs, yet they use a single $4 threshold for the whole of the US, and the whole of Europe...

And then they're not critical about their methodology when it consistently shows that warmer countries have a larger chunk of the population that is very poor.

Perhaps it's easier to live on $4 in Spain than it is in Denmark. And perhaps it's easier to live on $4 in California than it is in Michigan...

When it comes to extreme poverty anyway, we're looking at the very tail of the bell curves, so the stats are somewhat shady there. It's not very clean to compare tail stats between countries.

The thing that can be compared is the evolution of these numbers over time. If in the US more and more people are living with less than $4 a day, that is concerning.

Re: The U.S. Can No Longer Hide from Its Deep Poverty Problem

#140

Post by sp332 »

obeardly wrote: post #5

Poverty is not a problem. It is the default state. Instead of asking what causes poverty, we need to ask what causes wealth. We also need to realize that being poor is not a good/bad thing. Again, it's the default state.

But you can work hard your whole life and generate tons of wealth but if it all gets taken by other people, then you are still poor.

Edit: or dead. Recent example: http://metro.co.uk/2018/01/23/homeless-man-died-days-council...

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