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The U.S. Can No Longer Hide from Its Deep Poverty Problem

nytimes.com

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Re: The U.S. Can No Longer Hide from Its Deep Poverty Problem

#121

Post by bradleyjg »

11_4_time wrote: post #75

I'll go out on a limb and suggest that the U.S. immigration policy (or lack thereof) bears a signification part of the blame here. Why in the face of globalization (and now increased automation) the U.S. continues to have an effectively open-door policy to low-skill workers makes no sense at all. As a U.S. citizen, I'd like to see a return to the temporary moratorium that existed until the mid 1960s (say 10 to 15 yea…

Since you created a sockpuppet account to do it, I'd say you aren't really going out on a limb.

Re: The U.S. Can No Longer Hide from Its Deep Poverty Problem

#122

Post by frgtpsswrdlame »

kevingadd wrote: post #110
xya3453 wrote: post #99

> Beyond that, many Americans, especially whites with no more than a high school education, have seen worsening health: As my research with my wife, the Princeton economist Anne Case, has demonstrated, for this group life expectancy is falling; mortality rates from drugs, alcohol and suicide are rising Yet in 2018, most diversity initiatives still focus on race regardless of socio-economic background.

Diversity is a completely different subject from poverty. They're both subjects worth addressing. Poor black people in the deep south and poor white people in the deep south still live different experiences even if they're both having a hard time. Rich african americans get treated differently from rich white people. This isn't a contest. We need to fix everything.

>This isn't a contest.

Isn't it though? I mean to a certain extent policy and even corporate 'diversity initiatives' are a matter of priority - first we even the ground for women, then minorities, then maybe gender id is next? I don't see the Ivy League rushing to ensure that their campus maintains wealth-diversity in the same way they ensure racial diversity. Maybe we really do need an Oppression Olympics, then we can sort out which group is most in need of help and prioritize them (I'm biased, I think it's going to be the poor.)

Re: The U.S. Can No Longer Hide from Its Deep Poverty Problem

#123

Post by randomdata »

_m8fo wrote: post #115
randomdata wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I understand how the health of the fetus relates to poverty, I fail to see how that has anything to do with this particular discussion? We are talking about how everyone starts with nothing. The balance sheet of all brand new people to world always starts empty.

You're missing the point. Saying everyone starts off with a blank slate is like saying everyone born starts off alive. It's a useless statement. The point is that the quality of life upon birth is different. Said qualities result in the discrepancies you see today. EDIT: Furthermore, originally you stated: > The fact remains that everyone starts with nothing It's already been illustrated this is false. If you believe…

> You're missing the point.

Technically, I made the point. I'm not sure how I can miss my own point? Granted, I may have poorly phrased it leading to others missing the point, which is my bad, but if you're not going to try and let me clarify, I'm not sure what we're doing here?

> The point is that the quality of life upon birth is different.

Sure. I cannot disagree with that, but it's miles away from this conversation.

> It's already been illustrated this is false.

I'm afraid I still don't see it. That point was made in reference to earlier discussion specifically about wealth (again, something you measure on a balance sheet, not factors like fetal health). Their parents might have wealth that can be transferred to the child, but that is not the same as starting with wealth.

Re: The U.S. Can No Longer Hide from Its Deep Poverty Problem

#124

Post by Retric »

Leader2light wrote: post #106
Retric wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am for immigration, it's just the pseudo indentured servitude that is H1B that I have a problem with. As to factory outsourcing, I think it's overall a net gain for humanity. Long term there is a finite number of countries and barring societal collapse eventually they will all end up 'developed'. It simply exposes other problems in the US like our horrible social safety net and endemic corruption. So, a small ~2-5%…

What does it even mean any more to be "for immigration"! At what point do you feel the USA will have enough immigrants? It's already a nation of immigrants!

Without immigration the US population would be shrinking. So, we need an endless supply of new immigrants to avoid a host of problems now facing Japan.

Second we directly befit from a mix of immigrants from all nations.

Re: The U.S. Can No Longer Hide from Its Deep Poverty Problem

#125

Post by moduspol »

_m8fo wrote: post #40
randomdata wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact remains that everyone starts with nothing. The parent questions why some are able to flourish, while others continue with nothing indefinitely.

The "fact" that everyone starts with nothing is obviously false. Even ignoring opportunity, the fetal health is highly dependent on the environment.

I think the point is being missed here. In an inherent sense, humans start with nothing.

We (as a society) have hospitals available which greatly decrease infant mortality. We have widely available nutrition that keeps people from starving. These are steps that we, as a society, have taken to improve upon the default state (having nothing) of humans--including fetal health. Perhaps rather than focusing on how to make people in poverty more comfortable, we should focus on how to get them out of poverty.

That's not the same as claiming all people start on a level playing field.

Re: The U.S. Can No Longer Hide from Its Deep Poverty Problem

#126

Post by simonsarris »

e40 wrote: post #54
dictum wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To wahsd (dead comment): I get your point, but you should ask if the people are poor because they vote Democrat, or they vote Democrat because they're poor (and see themselves better represented by the Democrat platform)? Maybe not even/just poor, but excluded from local economy/politics due to race, gender, ethnicity, not being a member of the old boys' club, etc.

We've all seen the articles about Republican controlled cities putting homeless people on buses for Berkeley and other destinations in CA. wahsd is clueless.

This raises an interesting question: Do US democrats think inter-state immigration is bad? For example some liberal friends when talking about immigration last year kept posting that poem on the statue of liberty:

> "Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free", etc.

The Republican controlled cities are giving huddled masses to the people who accept that immigration logic.

Re: The U.S. Can No Longer Hide from Its Deep Poverty Problem

#127

Post by moreorless »

kevingadd wrote: post #110
xya3453 wrote: post #99

> Beyond that, many Americans, especially whites with no more than a high school education, have seen worsening health: As my research with my wife, the Princeton economist Anne Case, has demonstrated, for this group life expectancy is falling; mortality rates from drugs, alcohol and suicide are rising Yet in 2018, most diversity initiatives still focus on race regardless of socio-economic background.

Diversity is a completely different subject from poverty. They're both subjects worth addressing. Poor black people in the deep south and poor white people in the deep south still live different experiences even if they're both having a hard time. Rich african americans get treated differently from rich white people. This isn't a contest. We need to fix everything.

> Rich african americans get treated differently from rich white people.

I am neither a rich white male nor a rich black African American. Can you please elaborate on how they are treated differently?

Re: The U.S. Can No Longer Hide from Its Deep Poverty Problem

#128

Post by kingraoul3 »

ThomPete wrote: post #107

It's not a poverty problem it's a cost of living problem. Those are two very different things (and becomes more and more severe the poorer you are) You can't outsource your home to China. Globalization does not make every day cheaper it just provides more choices and will in aggregate always increase the cost of living. So as long as your job/income is on the right side of the rise of the cost of living you are fine…

And with a wave of her magic wand and the enunciation of the magic words "Ceteris Paribus", the Free Market Fairy made hookworm in Alabama disappear.

Re: The U.S. Can No Longer Hide from Its Deep Poverty Problem

#129

Post by _m8fo »

moduspol wrote: post #125
_m8fo wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "fact" that everyone starts with nothing is obviously false. Even ignoring opportunity, the fetal health is highly dependent on the environment.

I think the point is being missed here. In an inherent sense , humans start with nothing. We (as a society) have hospitals available which greatly decrease infant mortality. We have widely available nutrition that keeps people from starving. These are steps that we, as a society, have taken to improve upon the default state (having nothing) of humans--including fetal health. Perhaps rather than focusing on how to mak…

In no sense do people start off with nothing. People start off with the abilities or lack thereof possessed at birth. Compare a child with fetal alcohol syndrome with one without it. Do both start off with nothing? No. Clearly one has something the other does not.

Why do people insist on believing nonsense?

Re: The U.S. Can No Longer Hide from Its Deep Poverty Problem

#130

Post by woodruffw »

xya3453 wrote: post #99

> Beyond that, many Americans, especially whites with no more than a high school education, have seen worsening health: As my research with my wife, the Princeton economist Anne Case, has demonstrated, for this group life expectancy is falling; mortality rates from drugs, alcohol and suicide are rising Yet in 2018, most diversity initiatives still focus on race regardless of socio-economic background.

Here we go again.

Race correlates strongly with socioeconomic background. Insofar as diversity initiatives are actually attempting to improve the lives of disadvantaged people in this country, arguments like yours amount to relative privation.

Heart disease kills more people than lung cancer, but there's nothing wrong with raising money to research lung cancer.

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