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The Eve programming language project is winding down

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Re: The Eve programming language project is winding down

#191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Education is broken, and not "impulse-fixable", ie it will require years of collective concerted effort to affect change, if it is ever fixed at all. "A dad who knows ____ and can teach it" is, on the other hand, a practically-attainable real-world solution.

he would have learned it regardless of his dad teaching him - because he is smart. education can't do much to change the population distribution of intelligence.

I don't know about that. "Being smart" isn't a big enough hammer, sometimes.

I'm "smart". I taught myself how to program, and now I'm an architect-level developer that's respected by everyone I've ever worked with. But I'm also a college dropout. I had a terrible education ("Christian" "school" with no qualified teachers) and my parents were no scholars themselves; and I gave up on college because I couldn't get a CS degree without making it through Calc 1, which I didn't even get to until my second year of college because my whole first year (and the summer prior!) was spent in remedial math.

I worked every night in the math lab with the smartest tutor I've ever met. I stayed up until 2a every night trying to get my Calc 1 homework done. But it wasn't enough. I didn't have a strong enough foundation to pull it off. It was too little, too late.

Years later, I think I'd do much better, as learning how to develop enterprise-grade data warehousing and ETL solutions has taught me /how/ to learn. But at the time, I had no good "tools" to use - I just knew how to memorize, memorize, memorize. And it just wasn't enough.

If my stupid, fucking, batshit insane religious-maniac parents had just let me go to a public high school - like I begged them to - all of this could have, and would have, been avoided.

Re: The Eve programming language project is winding down

#192
post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah your right. Swift didn’t change anything

>> And also, Swift hardly "changed the whole industry", as far as I know. > Yeah your right. Swift didn’t change anything This is the second time in this comment thread that you have strongly misrepresented something said by someone else. For the sake of a rational discussion, please refrain from such behavior in the future.

Yes, your right too. I'm a naughty boy :)

Re: The Eve programming language project is winding down

#193

We need to have a conversation about the possible paths to make programming more widely accessible. Chris saw the problem clearly and tried to fix it. Respect. I am most impressed with the number of iterations he was able to crank in the context of a startup. But ultimately a startup may not be the best place to start, because low-end programming is not a short-term growth play. We have to play the long game.

Problem with Math:

Moving people in class forward before mastery. I guarantee you that 95% of the problems with math is students don't have one or two concepts mastered and then they are forever unsure.

My strategy is I use Khan Academies Math assessment with kids all the way through their parents. https://www.khanacademy.org/math

My two youngest have been doing for a few years. My 1st grader has almost completed 3rd grade right now. I know he has accomplished all the steps previously. My 6th grader she is in per-algerbra and every time she brings in homework I know she doesn't understand what she was taught. It can take 20 minutes for her to get her head around the concept but then she is fine. I have found that if I use Khan Academy after the drama level is lower and I have found her telling me she watched the Khan Academy videos and she is fine. I'll watch her do two problems and if she nailed it we move on. Math requires as much intervention in 4th to 6th grade as reading did from K-3rd grade form me.

In the UK they have started trials of Mathematics mastery. You can't move on till you have mastered the previous step. They did it one year and saw a slight increase in scores. This has to be started from Kindergarten till 5th grade to really see a difference. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematics_mastery

Re: The Eve programming language project is winding down

#194
post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree, now we have tons of free internet resources available. Back then I had to bicycle to the library to borrow a book, and hope that the accompanying diskette with the compiler in it was still working. Programming is still programming. Maybe becoming a professional software engineer is harder, though.

> I disagree, now we have tons of free internet resources available. An abundance of choice can actually make things harder.

Maybe but because books were scarce 'back in the days' didn't mean that they were high quality either..

Re: The Eve programming language project is winding down

#195
post #112

As an Angel investor on the Eve project even though I lost my investment, I think that Chris, Robert and the whole team deserve recognition as they changed the whole industry, and now everyone is following them. I am proud to have had the chance to be involved with them!

> as they changed the whole industry Huh? What industry are you talking about? The software development industry? Their influence was not even a rounding error. The let's-rethink-programming-completely industry? No idea, but that's not really an industry.

Some evidence for influence: https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2017/09/savin...

But they did, of course, not change the industry. Unfortunately.

Re: The Eve programming language project is winding down

#196
post #79

For anyone interested, here was Eve in its last incarnation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zenELksXotI

I really want to like this, but it's really not much more impressive than this, once you take into account the fact that the author clearly memorized the exact demo steps: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIZO1TKPlzY

I think it's 1000x more impressive - you get to see it in action live. How that scales up to more complex things though, I'm not sure...

Re: The Eve programming language project is winding down

#197
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the conversation we should have is why we make everything seem so hard. What a bunch of hooey. In 5th grade everyone talked about how Algebra was hard. When I got to Algebra, it was pretty easy. I was very surprised! Of course my dad had to explain it to me, because my teacher was incapable of explaining it. 10th grade, same thing with calculus. Thank god my dad knew calculus and was patient. Because my teach…

> "One thing I’ve noticed is that nothing humans have invented or discovered is hard." This is one of the most absurd and arrogant statements I've ever read on HN. If this is true, why don't you read some textbooks for a few years and start flawlessly performing surgery? Why don't you write a world-renowned novel? > "A child can learn Python or JavaScript. You just have to show them that it’s cool. But instead most a…

> why don't you read some textbooks for a few years and start flawlessly performing surgery?

You missed the point because you weren’t open minded enough (admittedly OP left it ripe for you to jump to this conclusion). What I believe OP was trying to say was that the example you mentioned above isn’t some impossibly hard thing that only those with a special gift can do, but rather that with the right motivation, enough practice, and possibly the right teacher, you too can achieve it. OP also did not put time boxing on how long it would take (that’s on you there), but said it’s achievable if the above is met.

Re: The Eve programming language project is winding down

#198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are being a bit harsh. These were ambitious undertakings with high levels of risk going into them, which, I bet, were well known. I've struggled in this field for 10+ years now and there are lots of dark alley ways that end in walls. Then everyone constantly tells you this has already been done when, no, it really hasn't (at best, the technology is there but so piss poor designed that it isn't useful). If you rei…

As a side note, and as someone else working in this space, you do yourself a disservice by telling yourself work in this space is stagnant since SmallTalk. It’s not that programming ergonomics are stagnant, it’s that all of the gains have been made by professionals. And the tooling is nearly impossible to leverage for a beginner environment because all of the assumptions of a pro developer are built in to their desig…

How is Markdown innovative exactly?

Re: The Eve programming language project is winding down

#199
post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Light table/eve was one of the influences for swift

The only quote I can find about swift and Light Table is this: > The Xcode Playgrounds feature and REPL were a personal passion of mine, to make programming more interactive and approachable. The Xcode and LLDB teams have done a phenomenal job turning crazy ideas into something truly great. Playgrounds were heavily influenced by Bret Victor's ideas, by Light Table and by many other interactive systems. From: http://n…

Nice link by the way. I was more referring to this published by The Atlantic (incidently owned by Steve Jobs family trust):

https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2017/09/savin...

https://www.recode.net/2017/7/28/16055162/laurene-powell-job...

Sorry this thread flamed up a bit. I was just trying to express my gratitude to the Eve guys

Re: The Eve programming language project is winding down

#200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and right now there is pretty much zero of it There's huge investment in programming languages and environments. It wouldn't surprise me if there's more than there has ever been at any one time. And it's entirely healthy that some fail. That's a primary means of learning. I would anticipate that some of the ideas from Eve will find their way into other environments, as did ideas from LightTable before it.

Where? The state of the art today of - debugging - code browsing, system exploration - customizable, modular, non-textual user interfaces* - immediate feedback after code changes - non-textual programming is * not necessarily visual programming. Look at the Genera Lisp OS or Plan 9 for example.

Languages: Swift, Go, Rust, Julia, Haskell, JS, C++ etc etc

Dev envs: VSCode, Electron, more build systems than you can shake a stick at, VMs, containers, playgrounds etc

Non-textual programming. For general purpose programming, I can't think of any. There are some dead ends that will probably remain so. For niche programming, there are loads.

And to my point, Lisp, Smalltalk and Plan 9 are all good examples of failed experiments that folk took ideas from and used in subsequent projects.

Now, you may not like the investment and innovation. It may not be what you had in mind. Each to their own. But there's plenty of investment and no small amount of innovation.

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