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The Eve programming language project is winding down

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Re: The Eve programming language project is winding down

#51

Post by j4ship »

jonathanedwards wrote: post #32

We need to have a conversation about the possible paths to make programming more widely accessible. Chris saw the problem clearly and tried to fix it. Respect. I am most impressed with the number of iterations he was able to crank in the context of a startup. But ultimately a startup may not be the best place to start, because low-end programming is not a short-term growth play. We have to play the long game.

no we dont ... people became good programmers with the tools we have ... actually people become good programers inspite of the tools (they build the tools with the languages and ide's they have)

Im not trying to lower the bar ... I want something better than these hacker rank games challenge site that distinguish the good from the bad

if you can become good with what we have now, you are not good, you need to spend time and practice

if you need a tool to become good , then what do you call the guys that are good anyways?

Programming is not ment to be easy its a very deep and very broad profession

Medicine is not easy , and you need certs

I go the opposite route , we need more certs in programming , im not worried about the script kiddies who cant hold more than 2 states in their mind. I want to make it harder to enter programming so I dont have to reteach people cs ideas when they graduate from hacker rank.

I want quality , not quantity from my programmers. Its not flipping burgers ... but thats exactly what these 6 week courses are touting

Its because the bay area needs a cheeper work force , it cant afford the college grads any more.

Re: The Eve programming language project is winding down

#52

Post by rntz »

steelmanning wrote: post #14

This is the same man, Chris Granger, that did a Kickstarter for Light Table, a so-called "next generation IDE," with promotional materials touting as new and revolutionary features that had been standard in IntelliJ, Visual Studio, and even Eclipse for years: http://chrononsystems.com/blog/light-table-concept-vs-realit... Light Table was also ultimately abandoned before completion. Perhaps Granger should rein in his…

Your comment is inconsistent with itself.

If LightTable's features "had been standard in IntelliJ, Visual Studio, and even Eclipse for years", how is that evidence that Granger et al were being overly ambitious? Wouldn't it suggest exactly the opposite?

Vice-versa, if LightTable was overly ambitious, wouldn't that mean it tried to do things that were (too far) beyond the scope of existing technology?

Re: The Eve programming language project is winding down

#53

Post by golemotron »

jonathanedwards wrote: post #32

We need to have a conversation about the possible paths to make programming more widely accessible. Chris saw the problem clearly and tried to fix it. Respect. I am most impressed with the number of iterations he was able to crank in the context of a startup. But ultimately a startup may not be the best place to start, because low-end programming is not a short-term growth play. We have to play the long game.

What if programming is just hard?

Re: The Eve programming language project is winding down

#54

Post by j4ship »

ibdknox wrote: post #48
steelmanning wrote: post #14

This is the same man, Chris Granger, that did a Kickstarter for Light Table, a so-called "next generation IDE," with promotional materials touting as new and revolutionary features that had been standard in IntelliJ, Visual Studio, and even Eclipse for years: http://chrononsystems.com/blog/light-table-concept-vs-realit... Light Table was also ultimately abandoned before completion. Perhaps Granger should rein in his…

Perhaps, but it's pretty easy to make judgements from the sideline about what people should or shouldn't do. I was the PM on Visual Studio. I can assure the things I showed in Light Table weren't there. Nor were they in Eclipse, as I studied that as well. You can pick and choose any number of things from our work over the years and say "Hey, but this looks like that" - I'm sure it does, but the question is does it wo…

hes basing it on evidence ... weather its easy or not (its an opinion, im not sure what the ease or difficulty of the statment matters) it seems accurate. Maybe some counter evidence like your knowledge of how hard he/the team works?

They try they failed ... and op is suggesting get some wins under your belt first. I dont things hes "acting hurt". You are acting hurt, and taking a criticism personally instead of for what it is. A reasonable statement.

This makes me see why the project failed ... surrounded by yes men that cant see the flaw and are focused on things like "how many people use it" rather than "why would anyone pay for this"

classic

Re: The Eve programming language project is winding down

#55

Post by rntz »

golemotron wrote: post #53
jonathanedwards wrote: post #32

We need to have a conversation about the possible paths to make programming more widely accessible. Chris saw the problem clearly and tried to fix it. Respect. I am most impressed with the number of iterations he was able to crank in the context of a startup. But ultimately a startup may not be the best place to start, because low-end programming is not a short-term growth play. We have to play the long game.

What if programming is just hard?

Building bridges is hard. But it's a lot easier now than it was five hundred years ago.

There's no general reason to think hard things can't get easier.

Re: The Eve programming language project is winding down

#56

Post by felipelemos »

steelmanning wrote: post #19
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are being a bit harsh. These were ambitious undertakings with high levels of risk going into them, which, I bet, were well known. I've struggled in this field for 10+ years now and there are lots of dark alley ways that end in walls. Then everyone constantly tells you this has already been done when, no, it really hasn't (at best, the technology is there but so piss poor designed that it isn't useful). If you rei…

> You are being a bit harsh I know, and I rewrote my post several times before submitting it, trying to minimize the harshness. But the pattern with Granger is pretty obvious, isn't it? Grandiose ambitions, over-commitment, and a resulting failure to ship.

And what's the problem with that? I think he (and everybody else) is free to have whatever dream they want, since they did not try to deceive others.

Re: The Eve programming language project is winding down

#57

Post by steelmanning »

steelmanning wrote: post #47
jonathanedwards wrote: post #32

We need to have a conversation about the possible paths to make programming more widely accessible. Chris saw the problem clearly and tried to fix it. Respect. I am most impressed with the number of iterations he was able to crank in the context of a startup. But ultimately a startup may not be the best place to start, because low-end programming is not a short-term growth play. We have to play the long game.

Squeak and its offshoot Pharo have been trying this for years. In fact, MIT Scratch was originally based on Squeak.

Why was this downvoted?

Squeak and Pharo are both pretty obviously prior art for Eve. For example, the bouncing balls demo someone linked to elsewhere in this thread looks very similar to Squeak + EToys, albeit with a dark theme.

Squeak and Pharo could both use more developers, BTW:

http://www.squeak.org

http://www.pharo.org

Re: The Eve programming language project is winding down

#58

Post by azhenley »

ibdknox wrote: post #48
steelmanning wrote: post #14

This is the same man, Chris Granger, that did a Kickstarter for Light Table, a so-called "next generation IDE," with promotional materials touting as new and revolutionary features that had been standard in IntelliJ, Visual Studio, and even Eclipse for years: http://chrononsystems.com/blog/light-table-concept-vs-realit... Light Table was also ultimately abandoned before completion. Perhaps Granger should rein in his…

Perhaps, but it's pretty easy to make judgements from the sideline about what people should or shouldn't do. I was the PM on Visual Studio. I can assure the things I showed in Light Table weren't there. Nor were they in Eclipse, as I studied that as well. You can pick and choose any number of things from our work over the years and say "Hey, but this looks like that" - I'm sure it does, but the question is does it wo…

Graduate school is a great place for "people testing the fringes."

My experimental code editor design, Patchworks [1], is one such example.

P.S. I'm a big fan of your work! Looking forward to hearing about your next project.

[1] http://dl.acm.org/authorize?N84177

Re: The Eve programming language project is winding down

#60

Post by rntz »

scroot wrote: post #59

None of us really know what programming is, and we don't have institutions at present that will allow people to explore the problem thoroughly. These guys deserved a better culture to work in.

> we don't have institutions at present that will allow people to explore the problem thoroughly

What about academia?

Academia is not a great environment for creating tools that people will actually use, which Eve was definitely trying to be; but "exploring a problem thoroughly" is exactly what academia is for.

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