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Scientists In Alaska Find Mammoth Amounts Of Carbon In The Warming Permafrost

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Re: Scientists In Alaska Find Mammoth Amounts Of Carbon In The Warming Permafrost

#81

Post by michaelmrose »

matte_black wrote: post #24
kregasaurusrex wrote: post #7

There could be anything underneath all the permafrost, including new biodiversity which we haven't catalogued yet. NPR ran a story[0] where Russian animals such as reindeer infected with Anthrax had thawed out, and caused outbreaks where people had to get preventative treatments against it. As a future threat model, what if there's new viruses or bacterium contained under previously frozen earth for which modern medi…

Such events are necessary to keep human population under a manageable number. Throughout human history there have been outbreaks that claimed many lives and stunted population growth for some time. We will likely see such an event in our time.

Humans prior to modern times haven't ever exceeded the carrying capacity of our environment and haven't had a die out that substantially reduced our population in modern times.

Your thesis other than being fictional also is an emotional appeal to the concept that what is natural is desirable which is wholly unsound both on its face and because any die out sufficient to be effective is entirely likely to not only take civization with it but also reduce our ability to take effective measures to manage our environment as our technology dies with our civilaztion.

The way forward to a managable population size is through raising everyone up to a relaively modern level and the way forward to that population living sustainably is via education.

Edit: Your philosophy that its ok for the more developed nations to wreck the environment leading to mass death presumably among those you regard as your inferiors while relax and have a latte safe behind our metaphorical walls is pure insanity.

Re: Scientists In Alaska Find Mammoth Amounts Of Carbon In The Warming Permafrost

#82

Post by LargeWu »

goatlover wrote: post #39
jjoonathan wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are there credible models that suggest Earth will turn into Venus or something? It would take a hell of a lot more to end humanity than it would take to "merely" hurt/kill the most vulnerable segments of our population (which is what I thought the stakes were).

No, the Earth has been a lot warmer and colder in the past. We've had massive volcanoes going off for thousands of years, we've had iceball earth, we've had crocodiles and palm trees in the arctic. The Earth's systems always balance out over the long run. We don't stay trapped in ice ages or hot phases.

The difference is that civilization is a comparatively new development, and nobody really knows how that's going to fare in the face of all this. The human cost is likely to be staggering.

Re: Scientists In Alaska Find Mammoth Amounts Of Carbon In The Warming Permafrost

#83

Post by bcaulfield »

goatlover wrote: post #39
jjoonathan wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are there credible models that suggest Earth will turn into Venus or something? It would take a hell of a lot more to end humanity than it would take to "merely" hurt/kill the most vulnerable segments of our population (which is what I thought the stakes were).

No, the Earth has been a lot warmer and colder in the past. We've had massive volcanoes going off for thousands of years, we've had iceball earth, we've had crocodiles and palm trees in the arctic. The Earth's systems always balance out over the long run. We don't stay trapped in ice ages or hot phases.

Yes, absolutely. But the species that inhabit the earth come and go, and climate seems to be one driver.

Re: Scientists In Alaska Find Mammoth Amounts Of Carbon In The Warming Permafrost

#84

Post by bcaulfield »

iamcasen wrote: post #46

It seems the only way to combat the thawing permafrost problem is to deploy world-scale carbon capturing schemes of some sort. Here's to hoping that we can develop something like that in time.

Or set off a few hundred nukes.

Re: Scientists In Alaska Find Mammoth Amounts Of Carbon In The Warming Permafrost

#85

Post by michaelmrose »

jessaustin wrote: post #51
ceejayoz wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Such events are necessary to keep human population under a manageable number. Is there any evidence for this assertion?

It's really more of a philosophical position, isn't it? That isn't to say it's correct, but what would "evidence" even mean in this context?

Philosophical positions that you can't defend are mental masterbation without a payoff at the end. They aren't worth the time required to post them on this site.

Re: Scientists In Alaska Find Mammoth Amounts Of Carbon In The Warming Permafrost

#86

Post by robotsonic »

legohead wrote: post #76
corpMaverick wrote: post #2

It is not just a bomb that can blow the arctic. It can destroy all human civilization. And at this point, we may have lost any ability to do anything. Edit: Doom scale... 1 Inconvenient storms. 2 More frequent natural disasters. 3 Destroying coastal cities. 4 Causing hunger, wars and mass migrations. 5 Decimating human population. 6 Destroying human civilization. 7 Destroying all humans on earth. 8 Destroying all lif…

I don't get their test case. They took it to the lab, and thawed it up to room temperature ? That's not going to happen. It's going to get warmer, maybe just warm enough for the bacteria to thaw, and then immediately die. Did they do any realistic tests?

At first, I agreed, but then realized there's two issues with the argument I can think of:

1) to get to the warmer temperatures, you need to pass through the room temperature stage first. Things might change quickly, but not THAT quickly, meaning whatever is lurking in the soil can cause havoc/mutate/etc. before hitting it's upper temperature limits.

2) The areas where permafrost is generally found see summer temperatures generally at or below 'room temperature' now.

I do agree, that their tests could have been more thorough and included future scenario temperatures, but may underestimate the problem by not allowing mutation time.

Re: Scientists In Alaska Find Mammoth Amounts Of Carbon In The Warming Permafrost

#87

Post by rexaliquid »

maxxxxx wrote: post #52
corpMaverick wrote: post #2

It is not just a bomb that can blow the arctic. It can destroy all human civilization. And at this point, we may have lost any ability to do anything. Edit: Doom scale... 1 Inconvenient storms. 2 More frequent natural disasters. 3 Destroying coastal cities. 4 Causing hunger, wars and mass migrations. 5 Decimating human population. 6 Destroying human civilization. 7 Destroying all humans on earth. 8 Destroying all lif…

" It can destroy all human civilization." I think saying stuff like this should be avoided. There is almost no chance that civilization will be destroyed. There will be major problems but the world won't go under. By making up total doom scenarios credibility of climate change proponents goes down a lot in my view.

Our systems of civil society are fairly robust, but at some point those major problems become greater than our ability to cope. Unfortunately, "almost no chance" and "no chance" are not the same thing.

Re: Scientists In Alaska Find Mammoth Amounts Of Carbon In The Warming Permafrost

#88

Post by matte_black »

michaelmrose wrote: post #81
matte_black wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Such events are necessary to keep human population under a manageable number. Throughout human history there have been outbreaks that claimed many lives and stunted population growth for some time. We will likely see such an event in our time.

Humans prior to modern times haven't ever exceeded the carrying capacity of our environment and haven't had a die out that substantially reduced our population in modern times. Your thesis other than being fictional also is an emotional appeal to the concept that what is natural is desirable which is wholly unsound both on its face and because any die out sufficient to be effective is entirely likely to not only take…

Education is not the savior. There is a physical limit to resources here on this Earth. There is only so much food we can make, only so many jobs we can create.

The only way to manage population is to control breeding. That is not a scaleable solution.

Re: Scientists In Alaska Find Mammoth Amounts Of Carbon In The Warming Permafrost

#89

Post by [deleted] »

FeteCommuniste wrote: post #58
tzahola wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s not how evolution works. That’s like saying that a dog could easily kill a velociraptor because dogs are 65 million years “more evolved”.

I would bet on a medium-sized to big, healthy dog against a velociraptor. Raptors were around the size of a turkey. Might not be an easy fight, though.

[deleted]

Re: Scientists In Alaska Find Mammoth Amounts Of Carbon In The Warming Permafrost

#90

Post by nerdponx »

bad-joke wrote: post #80
nerdponx wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a socialized system you'd have the same thing, except perpetuated by bureaucrats instead of businessmen. If anything, capitalism has an advantage in that it's at least theoretically possible to mitigate the effect of greed on politics. Throwing all your eggs into the government basket gives you no such recourse.

The Volkswagen emissions scandal demonstrated that mitigating effects will be circumvented given the presence of a profit motive. Rather than construct an elaborate and exploitable maze of incentives, perhaps it would be simpler to remove the profit motive.

That's my point. Capitalism or socialism, greed is greed. There is always a profit motive.
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