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NSA Deletes “Honesty” and “Openness” from Core Values

theintercept.com

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Re: NSA Deletes “Honesty” and “Openness” from Core Values

#111

Post by pwaivers »

krisives wrote: post #57
pwaivers wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are lots of great reporters in the USA with integrity. I am sad to see this general sentiment that quality journalism is dead.

Seems lame to downvote and move on - you said yourself there are lots of great reporters I'm interested in any of them!

[1] Here is the International Consortium of Investigative Journalism (ICIJ), which worked on the Panama Papers and Paradise Papers. It is based in Washington, DC and works closely with news organizations in the US and around the world.

[2] Here is a specific story that came to mind, where a Washington Post journalist would not release a scandal story because there was not enough evidence. In fact, they even investigated the source and discovered that it was sting operation trying to prove the the Post has low integrity.

[1] https://www.icij.org/

[2] https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/a-woman-approa...

Re: NSA Deletes “Honesty” and “Openness” from Core Values

#112

Post by dmix »

Notably they also added this line, to join in on the 'inclusive' and 'diversity' corporatespeak trend:

> Respect for People - We are committed to ensuring that all NSA personnel are respected, included and valued for their diverse backgrounds, experiences, skills and contributions to our mission and culture.

Re: NSA Deletes “Honesty” and “Openness” from Core Values

#113

Post by pbhjpbhj »

bradyd wrote: post #68
zipwitch wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are currently paying the costs (both monetary and otherwise) for the apparatus you describe, but looking at the last decade, the benefits appear to be absent. Perhaps we need to consider the possibility that an organization like the NSA just isn't worth having?

In fact organizations like the CIA and NSA are more of a threat to the American people than the people they are supposedly protecting us from.

I suspect it's like inoculation: some people die from inoculations, but on the whole the herd gains valuable protection.

The TLA may be terrible for particular individuals, or small groups with a shared characteristic, but politicians should nonetheless advocate for them to protect the "way of life of citizens".

It's a "do you keep a guard dog that you know might maul a child" type of question.

Re: NSA Deletes “Honesty” and “Openness” from Core Values

#114

Post by willstrafach »

civility wrote: post #103
willstrafach wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment shows why some more open-ness would be great for everyone. Working in secret means nobody will know of the genuine successes, only the allegedly problematic aspects which leak out. It might not be simple, but I am sure that it would be possible to remove classified details from certain “wins” (whether counterterror, counterproliferation, or other) and let the public know what their tax dollars are going…

Why are they "genuine successes", but only "alleged problems"? I think you're giving them credit for alleged successes and ignoring the genuine problems.

I used this phrase:

> allegedly problematic aspects which leak out

Due to the problematic aspects being judged solely by the journalists publishing the leak.

For example, the business records collection on Verizon metadata was something The Guardian saw as problematic and worth exposing, and I agree on it being problematic, so I was glad to see it fixed in 2015 (They now must ask the ISP for information in a more targeted manner instead of getting it all and self-regulating targets).

On the other hand, Spiegel alleged that TAO and CNE-related activities are problematic. I disagree with that and did not see any point in those releases.

Hopefully that makes more sense, I did not mean to imply anything with my phrasing.

Re: NSA Deletes “Honesty” and “Openness” from Core Values

#116

Post by andrewstuart2 »

iambateman wrote: post #50

I, as a taxpayer, pay the NSA to be effective in defending national interests, to act with integrity, and to submit themselves to the oversight of my representatives in Congress. I have no expectation that they will be honest or open with me. Being closed is integral to their work. However they damn well better submit to oversight and respect my constitutional rights as a citizen.

From the NSA, and my admittedly-limited understanding of their duties, I'd expect honesty but not full openness. I'd rather you never tell me anything than be mislead.

It's a trust thing. Lying might boost trust temporarily but when I realize it's a lie, it's gonna be lower than before.

Re: NSA Deletes “Honesty” and “Openness” from Core Values

#117

Post by bzbarsky »

wambotron wrote: post #98
yters wrote: post #96

A lot of complaints against three letter agencies, who have elected officials with oversight and only hire from American citizens. Few complaints against Microgoogfacebook to whom we give all our most private electronic correspondence, have no oversight, and hire many foreign nationals who have little stake in whether the companies abuse the info they've been given. This strikes me as a bit odd.

You choose to give your data to Microsoft/Google/Facebook/whatever other private company you're complaining about. There is no agreement to give things to the NSA.

> You choose to give your data to Microsoft/Google/Facebook

If only that were so.

Facebook gathers data on you whether you give it to them or not. See https://www.dailydot.com/news/facebook-shadow-profiles-priva... for example, but this is generally well-known.

As far as I know Google likewise gathers all sorts of information without asking for it, just from their ads and analytics running on various websites.

Microsoft is a slightly different story.

Re: NSA Deletes “Honesty” and “Openness” from Core Values

#118

Post by randcraw »

atonse wrote: post #95
dfsegoat wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If history is any judge, as I recall from several recent reads on NSA post-Snowden / Stuxnet etc: Even the most outspoken critic of the NSA (I want to say it was a State attorney or something) was quick to reverse his critiques when he was granted control of an oversight investigation - he was actually shocked at the amount of integrity and openness that he found WITHIN the organization. Doesn't mean it is visible to…

But this doesn't change the fact that the Snowden revelations were just as shocking to many members of Congress. Although who knows, they might also be feigning surprise. But after a certain point, if you think everyone is lying about everything, then what kind of existence is that?

It's unlikely they were feigning. Even the members of the house & senate intelligence committees do not get thorough and uniform access to intel.

In the past, those members of the political party that is out of power have been routinely excluded from agency briefings and documents. In practice, the fraction of these two committees that is well informed about the agency's current activities is likely to be very small.

And after the undeniable perjured testimony of Clapper before congress denying all NSA spying on civilians, and subsequent failure by Justice to prosecute or even investigate Clapper et al, the likelihood that anyone will know what NSA or CIA actually does (unless they live at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave, that is) is effectively nil.

Re: NSA Deletes “Honesty” and “Openness” from Core Values

#119

Post by not_kurt_godel »

jackhack wrote: post #106
dfsegoat wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If history is any judge, as I recall from several recent reads on NSA post-Snowden / Stuxnet etc: Even the most outspoken critic of the NSA (I want to say it was a State attorney or something) was quick to reverse his critiques when he was granted control of an oversight investigation - he was actually shocked at the amount of integrity and openness that he found WITHIN the organization. Doesn't mean it is visible to…

I wonder how much blackmail material he was shown just before he dramatically reversed his opinion. I am very cynical. But then a long chain of recorded history rewards my point of view.

I wonder how many PR bots the NSA has on sites like Hacker News.

Re: NSA Deletes “Honesty” and “Openness” from Core Values

#120

Post by vibrio »

randcraw wrote: post #118
atonse wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But this doesn't change the fact that the Snowden revelations were just as shocking to many members of Congress. Although who knows, they might also be feigning surprise. But after a certain point, if you think everyone is lying about everything, then what kind of existence is that?

It's unlikely they were feigning. Even the members of the house & senate intelligence committees do not get thorough and uniform access to intel. In the past, those members of the political party that is out of power have been routinely excluded from agency briefings and documents. In practice, the fraction of these two committees that is well informed about the agency's current activities is likely to be very small.…

which is even more concerning considering reports of how the current resident of 1600 assesses intelligence.
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