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NSA Deletes “Honesty” and “Openness” from Core Values

theintercept.com

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Re: NSA Deletes “Honesty” and “Openness” from Core Values

#91

Post by devoply »

iambateman wrote: post #50

I, as a taxpayer, pay the NSA to be effective in defending national interests, to act with integrity, and to submit themselves to the oversight of my representatives in Congress. I have no expectation that they will be honest or open with me. Being closed is integral to their work. However they damn well better submit to oversight and respect my constitutional rights as a citizen.

> However they damn well better submit to oversight and respect my constitutional rights as a citizen.

And which watchdog is ensuring this exactly? hint: It's not the politicians...

Re: NSA Deletes “Honesty” and “Openness” from Core Values

#92

Post by jpetso »

criley2 wrote: post #35
pweissbrod wrote: post #9

> In response to questions from The Intercept on Tuesday, the NSA played down the alterations. Thomas Groves, a spokesperson for the agency, said: “It’s nothing more than a website update, that’s all it is.” ^^ Updating the wordage on the website was a task placed on the queue of a website administrator which was requested by the manager as a takeaway from an internal meeting reviewing core values. This explanation i…

As a taxpayer, I find the entire idea that the NSA pretended to be for honesty and openness to be funny. What's next, the CIA is about hope and change? As a taxpayer I accept that the NSA is the SIGINT side of America's spyforce, while the CIA is more of the HUMINT side of our spyforce. The entire idea that the techie side of our spyforce claimed to care about "openness and honesty" is rather absurd and hilarious in…

As a taxpayer, I'd like to see HUMINT continued and supported. However, SIGINT deserves nothing less than a full (and orderly) shutdown.

Re: NSA Deletes “Honesty” and “Openness” from Core Values

#93

Post by drusepth »

tambienben wrote: post #85
drusepth wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even in our current world, some issues' importance outweighs sticking to the party line. Luckily, we have more than two parties to vote for, so it's not quite as black and white as that.

>Luckily, we have more than two parties to vote for Not to most americans--especially when it comes time to vote.

There's a real catch-22: the multiple other parties we (in the US) are capable of voting for will never have a chance at winning if we don't treat them as real alternatives to the entrenched two.

There's a reason both D's and R's repeat the lines "voting for a third party is a wasted vote" and play the polarizing "if you vote third party, you're voting for " card each election season. It may be partially true at the time, but also implies there are only two parties that can actually win -- which is something that can easily change, especially as D's and R's both move further towards the end of their respective spectrums.

Re: NSA Deletes “Honesty” and “Openness” from Core Values

#95

Post by atonse »

dfsegoat wrote: post #87
iambateman wrote: post #50

I, as a taxpayer, pay the NSA to be effective in defending national interests, to act with integrity, and to submit themselves to the oversight of my representatives in Congress. I have no expectation that they will be honest or open with me. Being closed is integral to their work. However they damn well better submit to oversight and respect my constitutional rights as a citizen.

If history is any judge, as I recall from several recent reads on NSA post-Snowden / Stuxnet etc: Even the most outspoken critic of the NSA (I want to say it was a State attorney or something) was quick to reverse his critiques when he was granted control of an oversight investigation - he was actually shocked at the amount of integrity and openness that he found WITHIN the organization. Doesn't mean it is visible to…

But this doesn't change the fact that the Snowden revelations were just as shocking to many members of Congress.

Although who knows, they might also be feigning surprise.

But after a certain point, if you think everyone is lying about everything, then what kind of existence is that?

Re: NSA Deletes “Honesty” and “Openness” from Core Values

#96

Post by yters »

A lot of complaints against three letter agencies, who have elected officials with oversight and only hire from American citizens. Few complaints against Microgoogfacebook to whom we give all our most private electronic correspondence, have no oversight, and hire many foreign nationals who have little stake in whether the companies abuse the info they've been given. This strikes me as a bit odd.

Re: NSA Deletes “Honesty” and “Openness” from Core Values

#97

Post by dfsegoat »

atonse wrote: post #95
dfsegoat wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If history is any judge, as I recall from several recent reads on NSA post-Snowden / Stuxnet etc: Even the most outspoken critic of the NSA (I want to say it was a State attorney or something) was quick to reverse his critiques when he was granted control of an oversight investigation - he was actually shocked at the amount of integrity and openness that he found WITHIN the organization. Doesn't mean it is visible to…

But this doesn't change the fact that the Snowden revelations were just as shocking to many members of Congress. Although who knows, they might also be feigning surprise. But after a certain point, if you think everyone is lying about everything, then what kind of existence is that?

That is called existence in the world of espionage / counter-espionage. It doesn't really track with the existence of everyday people, or legislative bodies.

Re: NSA Deletes “Honesty” and “Openness” from Core Values

#98

Post by wambotron »

yters wrote: post #96

A lot of complaints against three letter agencies, who have elected officials with oversight and only hire from American citizens. Few complaints against Microgoogfacebook to whom we give all our most private electronic correspondence, have no oversight, and hire many foreign nationals who have little stake in whether the companies abuse the info they've been given. This strikes me as a bit odd.

You choose to give your data to Microsoft/Google/Facebook/whatever other private company you're complaining about. There is no agreement to give things to the NSA.

Re: NSA Deletes “Honesty” and “Openness” from Core Values

#99

Post by willstrafach »

tambienben wrote: post #89
willstrafach wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Keep in mind, the concern does not apply if you are a US Person. It is not possible to query for your calls or traffic.

You're going to have to qualify that claim.

How would you like the comment to be qualified? Most direct public confirmation I can think of would be the IG report regarding violations, I believe it was one of the Snowden documents, in which multiple people who tried to “test” search themselves or others and it failed to allow the query (They were disciplined either way, of course).

I don’t think there was a claim to the contrary, unless you’re thinking of targeted / secret FISA by FBI, which is a different issue yet a possibly valid point (due to lack of normal search warrant).

Re: NSA Deletes “Honesty” and “Openness” from Core Values

#100

Post by SEJeff »

zipwitch wrote: post #60
dsjoerg wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You elect representatives and executives who are given security clearances and the right to great transparency and openness. When or if those elected officials are found to have abused the public trust, you punish them, their associates and their successors at the ballot box and in the court of public opinion. It's not a great process but I don't see a better way for a democracy to have an internationally competitive…

We are currently paying the costs (both monetary and otherwise) for the apparatus you describe, but looking at the last decade, the benefits appear to be absent. Perhaps we need to consider the possibility that an organization like the NSA just isn't worth having?

You could change NSA to CIA and your comment would still be just as invalid. We aren't supposed to know much of the work they do. We know that ultimately their data helps law enforcement agencies do their jobs, and helps the DoD / Executive branch make more informed decisions about our adversaries. It is infinitely difficult to quantify the value provided by the NSA's international surveillance apparatus.
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