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NSA Deletes “Honesty” and “Openness” from Core Values

theintercept.com

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Re: NSA Deletes “Honesty” and “Openness” from Core Values

#61

Post by volkk »

dsjoerg wrote: post #54
volkk wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sort of a catch 22 there, right? You expect integrity, but without honesty/openness, how do you hold them to it?

You elect representatives and executives who are given security clearances and the right to great transparency and openness. When or if those elected officials are found to have abused the public trust, you punish them, their associates and their successors at the ballot box and in the court of public opinion. It's not a great process but I don't see a better way for a democracy to have an internationally competitive…

Sure, that's sort of what I meant in terms of openness. I don't expect them to leak their secrets in some public memorandum, but I expect them to be fully transparent with the representatives that we elect. However, the question is--are the representatives doing the best job representing us given this sensitive information they're privy to? Who's to say the NSA isn't asking, "just write that we're doing well in this report, its for the better of this country long term." And how do we catch/stop this?

Re: NSA Deletes “Honesty” and “Openness” from Core Values

#63

Post by logfromblammo »

zeristor wrote: post #12
mtgx wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One last time. > Since at least May 2016, the surveillance agency had featured honesty as the first of four “core values” listed on NSA.gov, alongside “respect for the law,” “integrity,” and “transparency.” The agency vowed on the site to “be truthful with each other.” Also, I'm thinking they should probably remove all of these, if they were truly honest with us. Respect for the law? Come on. They've been constantly…

Logically they only have to remove "honesty"

Logically, if they removed "honesty" from their core values, there would be no need to delete it from their statement of core values.

Re: NSA Deletes “Honesty” and “Openness” from Core Values

#65

Post by drusepth »

vthallam wrote: post #58
dsjoerg wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You elect representatives and executives who are given security clearances and the right to great transparency and openness. When or if those elected officials are found to have abused the public trust, you punish them, their associates and their successors at the ballot box and in the court of public opinion. It's not a great process but I don't see a better way for a democracy to have an internationally competitive…

That'd work in an ideal world, not here. In a 2 party system which are increasingly polarizing you'd have the pressure to stick to the party line.

Even in our current world, some issues' importance outweighs sticking to the party line. Luckily, we have more than two parties to vote for, so it's not quite as black and white as that.

Re: NSA Deletes “Honesty” and “Openness” from Core Values

#66

Post by 34b907j »

brndnmtthws wrote: post #42
throwaway76025 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Discussed here recently, there’s a path from public to private sector that does serve the need to retain talent, to some degree. Also, to say they are mostly corrupt or incompetent seems possibly too much of a broad stroke that is based on anecdotes. I don’t believe Snowden, for instance, ever suggested either of those are true — did he? Finally, if this is your assessment, your standard may be unusually high. Maybe…

Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Any person or organization which contributes, aids, or abets in spying on individuals for political reasons is entirely corrupt in my opinion. Aside from some research that the NSA has contributed to humanity, they have done little good based on the evidence I've seen.

Is spying on people for profit and then sharing that data with various governments in exchange for political favors a morally sound pursuit?

I was about to add "pot, meet kettle", but this is more of a "pot, meet handle" situation.

Re: NSA Deletes “Honesty” and “Openness” from Core Values

#67

Post by drusepth »

zipwitch wrote: post #60
dsjoerg wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You elect representatives and executives who are given security clearances and the right to great transparency and openness. When or if those elected officials are found to have abused the public trust, you punish them, their associates and their successors at the ballot box and in the court of public opinion. It's not a great process but I don't see a better way for a democracy to have an internationally competitive…

We are currently paying the costs (both monetary and otherwise) for the apparatus you describe, but looking at the last decade, the benefits appear to be absent. Perhaps we need to consider the possibility that an organization like the NSA just isn't worth having?

By nature of the secrecy required by how the NSA operates, many of the benefits would likewise not be made public (to avoid sharing unnecessary information on how they operate), so I'm not entirely sure it's fair for any of us out of the know to weigh the benefits versus the costs in this way.

Our elected members privy to the actual costs and the actual benefits should be the ones making the decision on whether the NSA is worth having or not.

Re: NSA Deletes “Honesty” and “Openness” from Core Values

#68

Post by bradyd »

zipwitch wrote: post #60
dsjoerg wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You elect representatives and executives who are given security clearances and the right to great transparency and openness. When or if those elected officials are found to have abused the public trust, you punish them, their associates and their successors at the ballot box and in the court of public opinion. It's not a great process but I don't see a better way for a democracy to have an internationally competitive…

We are currently paying the costs (both monetary and otherwise) for the apparatus you describe, but looking at the last decade, the benefits appear to be absent. Perhaps we need to consider the possibility that an organization like the NSA just isn't worth having?

In fact organizations like the CIA and NSA are more of a threat to the American people than the people they are supposedly protecting us from.

Re: NSA Deletes “Honesty” and “Openness” from Core Values

#69

Post by contravariant »

neosavvy wrote: post #11
luxpsycho wrote: post #4

Ironically taking a step towards 'honesty'.

Man I was thinking the exact same thing. By nature these folks at the NSA CAN'T be open nor honest.

Actually I think they can be either one, just not simultaneously.

For what it's worth I would prefer honesty.

Re: NSA Deletes “Honesty” and “Openness” from Core Values

#70

Post by equalunique »

iambateman wrote: post #50

I, as a taxpayer, pay the NSA to be effective in defending national interests, to act with integrity, and to submit themselves to the oversight of my representatives in Congress. I have no expectation that they will be honest or open with me. Being closed is integral to their work. However they damn well better submit to oversight and respect my constitutional rights as a citizen.

>However they damn well better submit to oversight

James Clapper lied to the Senate intelligence committee about the existence of NSA bulk data collection. Infuriating.

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