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Perl 6 Optimism

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Re: Perl 6 Optimism

#201

Post by emmelaich »

newen wrote: post #178
mixmastamyk wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> everyone uses indentation. Yes, if you don’t you’re incompetent. If you do, the markers are then redundant. Mixed indentation hasn’t been allowed in years. Any good editor will show mixed indentation, guides, and indent properly with the tab key, get one. Sounds like your knowledge of Python is about a decade behind. Not to mention those were nonissues from my experience even back in the day.

These issues are only there because python has significant whitespace. These issues should not have been there in the first place. Ideally, I shouldn't need to use an editor geared specifically for python code to copy-paste some python code and run it. I have had no issues with the majority of other languages when copy-pasting some code and reindenting. Only in python have I had issues with it. Even in elpy-mode in E…

When I started writing C a million years ago I thought to myself -- why the f$# does the compiler need to be told twice what the structure of my code is? Once with {} and once with indentation. It's not as if anyone half-sensible is going to write good code with bad indentation.

With that thought in mind, I am pathetically grateful for Python.

Re: Perl 6 Optimism

#202

Post by emmelaich »

ionforce wrote: post #4
joosters wrote: post #2

I don’t understand why Perl 5 and 6 are still tied together as if they are the same language. There’s no compatibility between the two. You can’t write a library that works in both versions, so you lose CPAN and the thousands of packages that make Perl so powerful. I don’t think there’s even any reliable way to translate Perl 5 source code. This is a vastly larger change than python 2->3, and people are still using p…

Should have chosen a different name for the language.

What ... like Ruby? :-)

Perl6 has some compatibility -- at the wetware level.

Which is not nothing.

Re: Perl 6 Optimism

#203

Post by emmelaich »

systems wrote: post #141
kstrauser wrote: post #86

Perl Pessimism: https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&q=perl I have happy memories of Perl, and it started me on the path that led to a nice career of Python awesomeness. Thanks, Perl! That said, I can't imagine a plausible scenario where I'd ever consider using it again. I almost certainly wouldn't use it professionally because it's not exactly going to light up a resume. Yes, there are still Perl shops.…

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man." ― George Bernard Shaw Not all great decisions are rational, follow your heart be happy For me, Python is an uninspiring language, yet it inspired many people to build great things, a decision that to me, sound so .. irrational

The trouble with that syllogism is that some take it to mean that all unreasonable men create progress.

Re: Perl 6 Optimism

#204

Post by mixmastamyk »

newen wrote: post #178
mixmastamyk wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> everyone uses indentation. Yes, if you don’t you’re incompetent. If you do, the markers are then redundant. Mixed indentation hasn’t been allowed in years. Any good editor will show mixed indentation, guides, and indent properly with the tab key, get one. Sounds like your knowledge of Python is about a decade behind. Not to mention those were nonissues from my experience even back in the day.

These issues are only there because python has significant whitespace. These issues should not have been there in the first place. Ideally, I shouldn't need to use an editor geared specifically for python code to copy-paste some python code and run it. I have had no issues with the majority of other languages when copy-pasting some code and reindenting. Only in python have I had issues with it. Even in elpy-mode in E…

Don’t need a special editor, just an industry-standard one, that’s the whole point.

I was bothered by the whitespace too, for an hour one afternoon in the spring of ~2001. Then I got over it and realized what a masterstroke it was, removing ~15% of the redundant visual noise.

Firstly, if you cut and paste so often that you feel it should take precedence over everyday readability and conciseness, then that’s a dev smell. Code is read 10x as much as written, likely one reason perl declined.

Secondly, you could simply toggle view whitespace on your editor or have it replace the indent chars on the tab key. Geany does this automatically via pref and it’s Python-specific support is basic.

Thirdly, Python3 and pep8 make issues even less likely than they were. Which is approximately never in my experience in the last ten years or so.

So, this subthread could have been on slashdot in ‘98, hence the frustration.

It’s such a fucking non-issue and productivity boon. Like using yaml for config instead of json.

Re: Perl 6 Optimism

#205

Post by newen »

mixmastamyk wrote: post #204
newen wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These issues are only there because python has significant whitespace. These issues should not have been there in the first place. Ideally, I shouldn't need to use an editor geared specifically for python code to copy-paste some python code and run it. I have had no issues with the majority of other languages when copy-pasting some code and reindenting. Only in python have I had issues with it. Even in elpy-mode in E…

Don’t need a special editor, just an industry-standard one, that’s the whole point. I was bothered by the whitespace too, for an hour one afternoon in the spring of ~2001. Then I got over it and realized what a masterstroke it was, removing ~15% of the redundant visual noise. Firstly, if you cut and paste so often that you feel it should take precedence over everyday readability and conciseness, then that’s a dev sme…

My point is that you should be able to code python using Notepad but it is impossible to. Yeah, when multiple people complain of the same thing and you make up more and more complicated solutions for the problem, then you know where the problem lies. Also, you smell.

Re: Perl 6 Optimism

#206

Post by vgy7ujm »

lizmat wrote: post #184
vgy7ujm wrote: post #179

I hope that the Perl 6 core devs take notice of this and other threads from the past days. Somehow I think that the efforts have not been directed enough at things that perhaps are not that exciting for them but that matters a lot for potential users. Examples: - Better migration/transition from Perl 5 - Performance and stability - Killer features and explaining these thoroughly - Best in class tooling, editor suppor…

> Better migration/transition from Perl 5 This is what the CPAN Butterfly Plan is all about. And after that the Butterfly Perl 5 Project.

Yes but will it be enough?

For many Perl is tied to Unix and IMO a transition for /usr/bin/perl would be key.

I might not fully understand your plan but please do not throw away the "ubiquitous in Unix" legacy.

Re: Perl 6 Optimism

#207

Post by vgy7ujm »

vgy7ujm wrote: post #179

I hope that the Perl 6 core devs take notice of this and other threads from the past days. Somehow I think that the efforts have not been directed enough at things that perhaps are not that exciting for them but that matters a lot for potential users. Examples: - Better migration/transition from Perl 5 - Performance and stability - Killer features and explaining these thoroughly - Best in class tooling, editor suppor…

The tooling might be more important than you think to gain corporate/enterprise usage.

Im just throwing out examples here:

  - Official and optimized docker images
  - Easy to build CI pipelines
  - Fast and parallel execution of tests, easy to integrate in CI
  - Quick compile times if any of language, libs etc. Fast downloads of binaries
  - Great vendoring and packaging, don't need internet to deploy, deploy as binary
  - Easy command line tools for enforcing linting, code standards etc. with well thought out defaults officially supported
  - Editor support, out of the box experience

Re: Perl 6 Optimism

#208

Post by vgy7ujm »

askvictor wrote: post #158
vgy7ujm wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would love to be forced to use Perl :) As a side note, "forced" often means "we have a lot of beginners here and they want to do Python".

Find a job maintaining some legacy code (there's plenty of it there). At which point you'll quickly realise that maintaining a complex perl program (particularly that someone else wrote) is painful. And the only remaining production perl programs are complex or they would have been rewritten.

I would not mind actually.

Better than rewriting failing Python or Node projects once a year.

Re: Perl 6 Optimism

#210

Post by vgy7ujm »

rurban wrote: post #55
baybal2 wrote: post #7

I used perl when dinosaurs still roamed the land. Can somebody explain why it took so long for Perl 6? I read first p6/parrot vm textbook as a schoolboy more than a decade ago.

Because parrot development was mismanaged and ran into ground. Similar to perl5 management in the last 15 years.

Is there any hope of seeing your cperl efforts in mainstream perl? Would you be able to disregard recent history with p5p if you were welcomed back?
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