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Perl 6 Optimism

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191–200 of 243 posts

Re: Perl 6 Optimism

#191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is no technical advantage left to ASCII-only syntax for APL-derived languages. Except for that minor technical advantage of actually being on a standard keyboard. That said, I would love standard keyboards to get more symbols. I actally like using symbols instead of words for operators, when done in a consistent and logical fashion as J and K do and unlike Perl's disaster of a syntax. Map and reduce (each and…

> Except for that minor technical advantage of actually being on a standard keyboard. The IBM/Unicomp APL keyboard is a standard PS/2 PC/USB HID keyboard. Literally the only special thing about the IBM/Unicomp APL keyboards is what is printed on the keycaps (which you can buy separately https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/USAPLSET ). I don't understand this - how do people on Hacker News not realize that your key…

> Somehow multiple layouts are not a big deal for multi-lingual people, why is it so confusing for programmers?

I don't know. I would totally do it if others did it. There just isn't a critical mass enough.

Maybe the next APLish language needs to have both modes of display similar to how java editors fold old constructs into new ones. That would allow the extra symbols to be slowly adopted.

Re: Perl 6 Optimism

#192
post #8

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Pretty much. I used to use Perl 5 a lot but I never considered using Perl 6 and eventually moved on from the Perl ecosystem altogether. The huge advantage of Perl ~10 years ago was the massive amount of CPAN packages but in the meantime python & friends mostly caught up in my experience. Meanwhile the shiny new revolutionary Perl 6 took forever to release and when it finally did nobody cared anymore. Quoting Wikipedi…

Perl 6 seems to have one of the worst cases of the second system effect in modern history. It didn't help that Larry Wall got sick halfway through the development either. As a Perl 5 developer, I look at it and go "If I have to learn a new language I might as well make it a popular one like Python 3 or Rust."

Python - ok, but Rust? How many Rust jobs do you see posted on major job sites?

Re: Perl 6 Optimism

#193
post #18

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The failure to admit it was going slowly was another killer. It will be released at Christmas, we just aren't telling you which one. After a few years of hoping, I gave up and am in the world of Python and Django. Its a shame as Perl feels like a more powerful / expressive language than Python.

I'm one that moved to Python and don't want to look back. It is not that Python is easier read (I would say it is less noisy) but it is almost impossible to write your own "DSL" like you can do with Perl or Ruby. YMMV but for me this is what makes it easy to maintain: you just need to learn Python not the personal programming style of the previous developer.

If you have such a strong preference for Python isn't it fair to say that any version of Perl - 5 or 6 - wouldn't be right for you as Perl falls on the expressive end of the language spectrum like Ruby and Clojure? You could have left Perl for Python before Perl 6 was even invented.

Re: Perl 6 Optimism

#194
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty much. I used to use Perl 5 a lot but I never considered using Perl 6 and eventually moved on from the Perl ecosystem altogether. The huge advantage of Perl ~10 years ago was the massive amount of CPAN packages but in the meantime python & friends mostly caught up in my experience. Meanwhile the shiny new revolutionary Perl 6 took forever to release and when it finally did nobody cared anymore. Quoting Wikipedi…

I agree, it definitely hurt mainline Perl development when Perl 6 was this promised great new thing. At least Perl 5 never got abandoned, and there is development and bugfixing still going on today. Perl 5 has a feeling of being 'complete' as a language. I guess this makes it unsexy and it'll never be the cutting edge where all the cool devs want to work, but it's rock solid stable and reliable. Now, if only Perl 5 c…

If only language completeness was all that mattered. Module ecosystem health and community matter a lot more in the rise and fall of languages and CPAN now has a lot of unmaintained modules due to Perl's dwindling community. Languages themselves don't really decline once they've reached maturity.

Re: Perl 6 Optimism

#195
post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perl 6 seems to have one of the worst cases of the second system effect in modern history. It didn't help that Larry Wall got sick halfway through the development either. As a Perl 5 developer, I look at it and go "If I have to learn a new language I might as well make it a popular one like Python 3 or Rust."

Python - ok, but Rust? How many Rust jobs do you see posted on major job sites?

I always find this logic a little troublesome; there are certainly many more Python jobs than Rust, but there are also many more Python programmers than Rust programmers. Wouldn't it make sense to optimize for the best ratio of available jobs to qualified applicants rather than just the largest number of available jobs? (I'm not saying that the ratio is better for Rust, just that the metric itself being used seems flawed).

Of course, there are also reasons to learn a programming language beyond job listings; GP might work on things that don't require a specific language, be looking for a language for dude projects, or just want to learn a language for fun.

Re: Perl 6 Optimism

#196
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, it definitely hurt mainline Perl development when Perl 6 was this promised great new thing. At least Perl 5 never got abandoned, and there is development and bugfixing still going on today. Perl 5 has a feeling of being 'complete' as a language. I guess this makes it unsexy and it'll never be the cutting edge where all the cool devs want to work, but it's rock solid stable and reliable. Now, if only Perl 5 c…

> I guess this makes it unsexy Nah, what makes it unsexy is the Perl syntax. The world has moved on. The readability of modern languages like Python is on another level.

The "readability of Python" meme always strikes me as an appeal to mediocre programmers who can't be bothered to learn a full-featured language. It's like trying to avoid musical notation in the teaching of musicians for fear it'll get too complicated for the poor student. Can you imagine a civil engineer being spared the discipline of physics and maths? In which other professional discipline does one expect the language to be dumbed down to the size of the student's brain instead of requiring the student to raise his/her game to gain mastery of the subject?

Re: Perl 6 Optimism

#197
post #57
post #44

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Special characters, clear visual markers of scope etc. that Python lacks is part of the appeal of Perl to me. I feel like a dyslectic when I read Python (projects of significant size) due to it being much less visually helpful and that the idea of simplicity falls apart when the problems are not trivial and when multiple devs have touched the code over multiple years. YMMV of course but that is why your POV is not ob…

The visual marker of scope is there and it's massive: indentation. You can write bad code in every syntax, but when a language carries jokes about being "write-only" and the other has a reputation for being anal about indentation (the single most helpful scope-marker in any syntax), I don't think you can argue about objectivity when discussing readability. This said, I'd like to see scientific comparisons, which are…

If Python's identation-based scope is so obvious why does the language have to resort to "global" and "nonlocal" all over the place? Python is a crippled language hiding behind a veil of readability.

Re: Perl 6 Optimism

#198

I hope that the Perl 6 core devs take notice of this and other threads from the past days. Somehow I think that the efforts have not been directed enough at things that perhaps are not that exciting for them but that matters a lot for potential users. Examples: - Better migration/transition from Perl 5 - Performance and stability - Killer features and explaining these thoroughly - Best in class tooling, editor suppor…

Perl 6 is 5 times slower than Ruby in parsing a typical Apache log file with a regex. Text parsing with a regex was Perl's claim to fame but it seems to be last on Perl 6's list of priorities.

Re: Perl 6 Optimism

#199
My first programming job was perl back in '97 for the LAMP stack. There was a lot of neat things that I did with it back then... and clever too. I remember writing a neat Tie::Array that was backed by a database... and then undoing it because it was too clever and not something that was maintainable.

The last time I touched perl professionally was in '09 during the perl winter. The web stack was moving in other directions - especially that of Java (I'm a corporate back end line of business keep the gears of the company turning type). I write boring code - which is good. Boring code doesn't surprise people and when I pull it up from 10 years ago, it still works. I try to avoid clever code now - it takes too long to get back into the mindset that I had when I wrote it. I'll admit to one bit of clever code with annotations on an enum that I've written in the past half decade... and that is in place to force what would be runtime errors to be compile time errors instead.

I looked at perl 6... there's even a bug report with my name on it ( https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/8d04bec ). I really want to like the language - it makes me think about some things differently... and here's the "but". But it all feels too clever. Code needs to be reasonable - something that I can come back to later and pick up again and continue on with minimal switching of the mind. Unicode operators, Junctions (as neat as they are), redefining operators... its letting me and encouraging me to write clever code.

I pull up the docs and see things from https://docs.perl6.org/language/operators that make me wonder if its gone too far. There's more than one way to do it... but there are more of them than Java 8's list ( https://docs.oracle.com/javase/specs/jls/se8/html/jls-15.htm... ). I feel that there's more than one way is "more than one approach" not "more than one way to type '+'".

The code just doesn't feel reasonable anymore.

For what its worth, after not touching perl professional since '09, this past week I was called on to fix a LAMP stack. There's the CGI with a nice 'use CGI.pm' (the last change time on the file was from 2011). I was able to open it up, read it, debug it, and fix it in under an hour. It was straight forward, sensible, and reasonable code. I shutter to think what it will be like in another decade if someone comes by and asks someone to debug some 10 year old perl6 code and they open it up to find unicode scattered through it and trying to remember what =~= or ∘ does.

For my scripting needs now... I've been a Java coder for the past decade. When I want a script I'm more likely to fire up groovy. It runs, its stable, and it doesn't try to make me write clever code.

Sorry perl... you're just not my go to language for thought to code anymore.. and thinking in perl6 just isn't something that I'll find myself easily writing once or being able to figure out when coming back to later.

Re: Perl 6 Optimism

#200
post #20
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The failure to admit it was going slowly was another killer. It will be released at Christmas, we just aren't telling you which one. After a few years of hoping, I gave up and am in the world of Python and Django. Its a shame as Perl feels like a more powerful / expressive language than Python.

This. Being "forced to use Python" sucks as a Perl developer.

The only thing I miss about Perl was the immediacy of the regexes. There's a LOT I won't miss.

If you want that regex behaviour in a more modern language than Perl5 then Ruby is there.

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