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The Google Lunar X Prize’s Race to the Moon Is Over. Nobody Won

nytimes.com

21–30 of 94 posts

Re: The Google Lunar X Prize’s Race to the Moon Is Over. Nobody Won

#21
post #17

"Prizes are useful in bringing credibility to an industry, inspiring entrepreneurs and investors, and attracting new customers to an industry. Both the aviation and space benefited from the Orteig and Ansari X prizes. But, by challenging people to perform what are essentially stunts, they do not always address the fundamental technologies required to truly move a sector forward. And that can have deadly consequences.…

There are a lot of X Prizes. Many, like the lunar prize, are not dangerous. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X_Prize_Foundation The entire debate about a particular prize being nothing more than a stunt is a debate that doesn't fit well on HN. A private group getting to the moon and sending video back, could inspire others, which could get NASA a larger budget, or lead to more VC funding.

> The entire debate about a particular prize being nothing more than a stunt is a debate that doesn't fit well on HN

The article compares the Ansari X Prize [1], which Scaled Composites won, to the Orteig Prize [2], which Charles Lindbergh won. It's a statement on the efficiency of prizes, generally, in fostering technological change. Not a complaint abut a specific prize.

The evidence the author collects, across multiple articles and many decades show prize money is better spent on other things. The "inspire others" and "get NASA a larger budget" or "more VC funding" bits don't happen, or don't happen as effectively as if those goals had been directly pursued, e.g. paying for PR, lobbying or actually making the VC investments.

The optimizations made to win the prize rarely translate into broader success. The resulting disappointment(s) and inevitable hype-cycle end can end up doing more damage in the long run.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ansari_X_Prize

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orteig_Prize

Re: The Google Lunar X Prize’s Race to the Moon Is Over. Nobody Won

#22
post #20
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a lot of X Prizes. Many, like the lunar prize, are not dangerous. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X_Prize_Foundation The entire debate about a particular prize being nothing more than a stunt is a debate that doesn't fit well on HN. A private group getting to the moon and sending video back, could inspire others, which could get NASA a larger budget, or lead to more VC funding.

Launching a rocket capable of getting even a penny into space is dangerous. Reasonable precautions can mitigate those risks, but these things are not toys.

Look these are long discussions. Here's the one we had 3 years ago. You even chimed in. No one said they were toys. Should we just stay at home? You didn't think so 3 years ago.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8540279

Are Turing_Machine and JoeAltmaier still around?

Re: The Google Lunar X Prize’s Race to the Moon Is Over. Nobody Won

#23
post #22
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Launching a rocket capable of getting even a penny into space is dangerous. Reasonable precautions can mitigate those risks, but these things are not toys.

Look these are long discussions. Here's the one we had 3 years ago. You even chimed in. No one said they were toys. Should we just stay at home? You didn't think so 3 years ago. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8540279 Are Turing_Machine and JoeAltmaier still around?

> Should we just stay at home?

The legacy of Scaled Composite's air launch approach, aerodynamic re-entry, and piloted design--all fair decisions for a quick daredevil run to space--cost Virgin Galactic and its investors hundreds of millions of dollars. Their delays, overruns and mistake, in turn, made life difficult for SpaceX, Blue Origin, Sierra, and a handful of other space start-ups. Customers, Congress and investors now had a well-publicized promise, and failure to deliver, in mind.

Re: The Google Lunar X Prize’s Race to the Moon Is Over. Nobody Won

#24
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a lot of X Prizes. Many, like the lunar prize, are not dangerous. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X_Prize_Foundation The entire debate about a particular prize being nothing more than a stunt is a debate that doesn't fit well on HN. A private group getting to the moon and sending video back, could inspire others, which could get NASA a larger budget, or lead to more VC funding.

> The entire debate about a particular prize being nothing more than a stunt is a debate that doesn't fit well on HN The article compares the Ansari X Prize [1], which Scaled Composites won, to the Orteig Prize [2], which Charles Lindbergh won. It's a statement on the efficiency of prizes, generally, in fostering technological change. Not a complaint abut a specific prize. The evidence the author collects, across mul…

There are dozens of "X Prizes". The idea goes back hundreds of years.

https://longitudeprize.org/about-us/history

I think you'd have a really hard time raising the money to pay for lobbying to get more research.

Re: The Google Lunar X Prize’s Race to the Moon Is Over. Nobody Won

#25
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The entire debate about a particular prize being nothing more than a stunt is a debate that doesn't fit well on HN The article compares the Ansari X Prize [1], which Scaled Composites won, to the Orteig Prize [2], which Charles Lindbergh won. It's a statement on the efficiency of prizes, generally, in fostering technological change. Not a complaint abut a specific prize. The evidence the author collects, across mul…

There are dozens of "X Prizes". The idea goes back hundreds of years. https://longitudeprize.org/about-us/history I think you'd have a really hard time raising the money to pay for lobbying to get more research.

> There are dozens of "X Prizes"

I don't condemn prizes as a category.

The Longitude Prize and DARPA's self-driving car competitions were successful. Here's what differentiates them: the people who wanted to buy the product set the rules of the prize to yield something useful to them. The products of the X Prizes either have terrible product-market fit ("market" to be read broadly to include non-commercial users) or pursue the wrong goal (e.g. manned spaceflight crowding out launch-cost reduction, et cetera).

Re: The Google Lunar X Prize’s Race to the Moon Is Over. Nobody Won

#26
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look these are long discussions. Here's the one we had 3 years ago. You even chimed in. No one said they were toys. Should we just stay at home? You didn't think so 3 years ago. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8540279 Are Turing_Machine and JoeAltmaier still around?

> Should we just stay at home? The legacy of Scaled Composite's air launch approach, aerodynamic re-entry, and piloted design--all fair decisions for a quick daredevil run to space--cost Virgin Galactic and its investors hundreds of millions of dollars. Their delays, overruns and mistake, in turn, made life difficult for SpaceX, Blue Origin, Sierra, and a handful of other space start-ups. Customers, Congress and inve…

Look, if we're talking manned space flight, I was arguing against it 3 years ago in favor of robotic exploration. HN said I was wrong.

As for X-Prizes, in general, I think they're a great idea. My blog is http://h4labs.org

I took h4 from the first "X-Prize". H4 was the version of the watch that won the money. It has been explained repeatedly why they're a great idea. Should I rehash it on my blog, because I'm not going to do it here, again?

Btw, it sounds like we might simply be arguing over what's a good "X-Prize"?

Re: The Google Lunar X Prize’s Race to the Moon Is Over. Nobody Won

#27
I work with a former GLXP team (PTScientists from Germany). We left the prize in early 2017 and will launch in 2019. We're actually grateful for the GLXP. It opened doors, it did spread the word and created a community, it forced us to push through to meet deadlines. We had to develop business models (the prize itself wouldn't cover the costs) and adopt a professional mindset while not losing the hacker approach. And while nobody won the prize, the primary goal (kickstarting an ambitious private space industry) was accomplished.

That said, we still offer payload capacity to the lunar surface and lunar orbit. Since there's not much time left, it should be rather small and nice (think CubeSat format). We provide transportation, energy, communication. Don't be shy, fellow hackers, ask me. Here or under jk at ptscientists.com

Re: The Google Lunar X Prize’s Race to the Moon Is Over. Nobody Won

#28
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look these are long discussions. Here's the one we had 3 years ago. You even chimed in. No one said they were toys. Should we just stay at home? You didn't think so 3 years ago. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8540279 Are Turing_Machine and JoeAltmaier still around?

> Should we just stay at home? The legacy of Scaled Composite's air launch approach, aerodynamic re-entry, and piloted design--all fair decisions for a quick daredevil run to space--cost Virgin Galactic and its investors hundreds of millions of dollars. Their delays, overruns and mistake, in turn, made life difficult for SpaceX, Blue Origin, Sierra, and a handful of other space start-ups. Customers, Congress and inve…

What difficulties did Scaled Composite cause for SpaceX or Blue Origin? SpaceX is doing great, and the flying turtle has consistently achieved laudable milestone after laudable milestone.

Re: The Google Lunar X Prize’s Race to the Moon Is Over. Nobody Won

#29

"Prizes are useful in bringing credibility to an industry, inspiring entrepreneurs and investors, and attracting new customers to an industry. Both the aviation and space benefited from the Orteig and Ansari X prizes. But, by challenging people to perform what are essentially stunts, they do not always address the fundamental technologies required to truly move a sector forward. And that can have deadly consequences.…

That's somewhat selective quoting given that, beside safety, the linked article effectively contrasts the two prizes. The industries in question are themselves different - beside tourism for those with money to burn (a fairly limited market), there's not much of an application for suborbital flight. The wide commercial applications of aviation were obvious by the time Lindberg flew.

Re: The Google Lunar X Prize’s Race to the Moon Is Over. Nobody Won

#30

"Prizes are useful in bringing credibility to an industry, inspiring entrepreneurs and investors, and attracting new customers to an industry. Both the aviation and space benefited from the Orteig and Ansari X prizes. But, by challenging people to perform what are essentially stunts, they do not always address the fundamental technologies required to truly move a sector forward. And that can have deadly consequences.…

Wasn't all transportation extremely accident-prone in 1927?

When Lindbergh made his flight, commercial air travel was already 13 years old (not counting Zeppelins) and already growing rapidly. US Airline passengers nearly tripled from 1928 to 1929, from 60,000 to 170,000. That wasn't just because of Lindbergh, it was mostly because of the Ford Tri-motor.

All those passenger flights funded commercial airplane manufacturers to invest in new designs, and by the early 1930s we had far safer and more cost effective metal monoplane designs like the Boeing 247 and DC-2, and then the DC-3s. It was one of the great revolutions in transportation history. So what was so bad about it?

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