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Once seniors are too old to drive, our transportation system fails them

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Re: Once seniors are too old to drive, our transportation system fails them

#311

Post by Retric »

emj wrote: post #309
Retric wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In terms of speeding stop lights are a floor function. Make the cut and save 2 minutes fail and lose 2 minutes. You only see cases where they lose that bet, but it's just a numbers game. As to speeding, we have actual data on this stuff. So it's easy to demonstrate the risks are very low directly from accident rates vs # of speeders. The risk of early death vs time saved actually favors doing 5MPH over the speed limi…

> People try any justify their behavior, but statistically bike riders regularly risk death. The story about the dangerous jaywalker and bicyclists is a big falsehood if you look at the data. As I said; cyclists have the same behaviour than others have in traffic. The truth is that cyclists live longer, even with all the risky behaviour you think cylists are prone to. The thing that is risky is spending ones life in…

Their are a lot of very biased statistics reported around bike related deaths.

Even with a lot of bike infrastructure, and a biking culture Denmark sees 17% of traffic related deaths by cyclists which is vastly more than their share of miles traveled.

Their are augments around health benefits. But, these fail to show up in the data as Denmark has ranks #17 in Europe significantly behind even United Kingdom with it's well known obesity problem. https://www.reinisfischer.com/life-expectancy-european-union...

PS: You need or look at all related risks combined not just select a few. One risk rarely considered, is heavy exercise in traffic is very bad for the lungs.

Re: Once seniors are too old to drive, our transportation system fails them

#312

Post by lovich »

Spooky23 wrote: post #266
lovich wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is true, but periodic Ubers are also way cheaper than owning a car. If you only need to travel once a week it would likely be far cheaper than car taxes, gas, and maintenance

The average social security pensioner makes like $1200/mo. Even with subsidized housing, not much cash for a smartphone.

1200/mo is about what I took home for a year after college. It wasn't great but I was still able to afford a budget smartphone to use things like a GPS. I do understand the position of senior who are not doing well financially and I think we should support them, but supporting them doesn't mean they get to live the exact same lifestyle they became accustomed to when they were younger while the rest of society has to deal with reality.

Re: Once seniors are too old to drive, our transportation system fails them

#313

Post by obscurantist »

pacerwpg wrote: post #292
crottypeter wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is very telling even though it was like 1.5 miles... It should be the other way round "People drive to stuff, even though it's only 1.5 miles".

But 1.5 miles in Phoenix is not necessarily as 1.5 miles elsewhere. The sun is oppressive and actively trying to kill you there.

I can also imagine walking through 1.5 miles of Phoenix sprawl is dreadfully boring, compared to somewhere like San Francisco or Berkeley.

Re: Once seniors are too old to drive, our transportation system fails them

#314

Post by osdiab »

lgas wrote: post #60
jseliger wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do people push for rail Visit Japan (or these days China) and you will understand. This reminds me of people who say, "What's the big deal about electric bikes?" Ride one and you'll know. See what Japan and China are doing WRT rail and you'll know.

Given the difficulty and expense associated with going to Japan, perhaps you could describe it to us here using words.

China's system has one major leg up over Japan's, which is that it's still pretty cost effective and has become faster and potentially more thorough in the years to come (China is a much bigger country, so building out a thorough system is commensurately harder, but the East Coast and some major cities inland are already built out). That said if you're a tourist in Japan you can just get a JR pass and do it unlimited for a low cost—that doesn't apply to locals though, where Shinkansen is often more expensive than flying.

I was living in China for the last 6 months, you can just show up to the station without plans usually and book a high speed train ride 5 minutes before you go, where you'll be whisked from Xi'an to Beijing, a 13+ hour, 1,000km drive (about the distance from Boston to Cleveland), in 4.5 hours, with huge, comfortable seats, panoramic views of the countryside flying by at incredible speeds, and almost nothing will change your expected arrival (traffic? forget it, delays? pretty rare). You get clean restrooms and food and almost no time wasted at security, no worries about checked baggage limits and fees, and the ability to rebook for 10-20 minutes from now if you miss your train, all of this for less than $80?

Imagine if you could on an afternoon you decide that you want to go to Miami from Charlotte, and you can just casually get up and be there by dinnertime without going broke? It's terrific.

Or if you're more into regional transit, you can go from Suzhou to Shanghai, a 2 hour drive, within 30 minutes for like $5 without planning, similar routes which expand access to Shanghai within an hour's reach of over 120 million people.

It allows you to live in a small, isolated city in the countryside, yet be served by the huge scale airports and business of a megacity, with only a small fee and short time on a comfortable train where you can work, read, meditate, rest, or whatever it is you want to do. It expands your possibilities and brings equality of access in ways you wouldn't realize until you are a part of it.

In comparison with buses, for longer distance it definitely makes sense. For travel within cities, higher reliability (eschewing traffic and potential for accidents), very high capacity, comfort (no abrupt stopping and going, for modern systems at least; also less likely to experience motion sickness, which makes reading, etc easier), speed (think express trains in NYC or being able to cut through very busy places), and from some people's perspectives, increased property values, are all good reasons for it. But it is true, you get 80% of the way there with buses probably.

Re: Once seniors are too old to drive, our transportation system fails them

#315

Post by osdiab »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #95
dragontamer wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You pretty much can get anywhere in Japan using rail / subway alone. https://www.japan-guide.com/g17/2361_01.png Subway maps cover cities to insane details. https://bento.com/pix/subway/tokyo_subway_1700.gif

The same isn't so true for China. While they have HSR inter-city down, they don't have the same developed smaller branch lines that Japan does.

Quickly changing though. Shanghai intends to add on another 7 or 8 lines in the next 7 years for instance, with the intention of having everywhere in the inner rings within half a kilometer of a station. Change is the constant there.

And at least for the able bodied, bike shares pretty much make up for it in the short term.

Re: Once seniors are too old to drive, our transportation system fails them

#316

Post by btrettel »

Retric wrote: post #311
emj wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People try any justify their behavior, but statistically bike riders regularly risk death. The story about the dangerous jaywalker and bicyclists is a big falsehood if you look at the data. As I said; cyclists have the same behaviour than others have in traffic. The truth is that cyclists live longer, even with all the risky behaviour you think cylists are prone to. The thing that is risky is spending ones life in…

Their are a lot of very biased statistics reported around bike related deaths. Even with a lot of bike infrastructure, and a biking culture Denmark sees 17% of traffic related deaths by cyclists which is vastly more than their share of miles traveled. Their are augments around health benefits. But, these fail to show up in the data as Denmark has ranks #17 in Europe significantly behind even United Kingdom with it's…

> One risk rarely considered, is heavy exercise in traffic is very bad for the lungs.

While I agree air pollution is worth considering, "very bad" sounds like hyperbole to me. Definitely not anywhere near smoking. The solutions also are rather simple: change your route to avoid heavy traffic and/or wear an air filter. I've done both before and recommend the latter more, as it seems more effective, does not make breathing harder, and has other safety benefits as well. Also consider the length of one's commute.

It's also worth noting that air pollution can easily be worse when driving. In fact, while I can not find the link now, I recall one non-scientific article with some experiments run by academics suggested that net exposure to air pollution was higher when driving in some cases.

Re: Once seniors are too old to drive, our transportation system fails them

#317

Post by adrianN »

souprock wrote: post #301
Clubber wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's because our news is completely unregulated and local news always spotlights and aggrandizes crimes and whatnot, so that the population is terrified of itself constantly. Obviously if people took the time to look at the crime statistics, the chances of being a victim of a crime is less than half of what it was when I walked a mile to elementary school every day.

For the oddball crimes, that is true. Kids aren't actually getting swiped off the streets. For more normal crimes, the lifetime chance of being a crime victim is serious. For stranger-on-stranger violent crime, there is a total lifetime probability of about 5.3%. You might think "oh that is just 5.3% so no big deal", but the chance of dying in a fire is only 0.09% and we still bother with smoke detectors. Violent cri…

I've been victim of violent crime. Somebody hit me in the face for no reason at all and ran away. While that sucks pretty bad, dying in a fire, or even just losing all my stuff in the fire, is incomparably worse. Being a victim of violent crime doesn't mean that you land in the hospital. Violent crime has a pretty broad definition.

Re: Once seniors are too old to drive, our transportation system fails them

#318

Post by emj »

Retric wrote: post #311
emj wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People try any justify their behavior, but statistically bike riders regularly risk death. The story about the dangerous jaywalker and bicyclists is a big falsehood if you look at the data. As I said; cyclists have the same behaviour than others have in traffic. The truth is that cyclists live longer, even with all the risky behaviour you think cylists are prone to. The thing that is risky is spending ones life in…

Their are a lot of very biased statistics reported around bike related deaths. Even with a lot of bike infrastructure, and a biking culture Denmark sees 17% of traffic related deaths by cyclists which is vastly more than their share of miles traveled. Their are augments around health benefits. But, these fail to show up in the data as Denmark has ranks #17 in Europe significantly behind even United Kingdom with it's…

> You need or look at all related risks

You are right that traffic pollution is very bad for the lungs, it's actually the cause of 30%-60% of all deaths related to lung diseases, but this is true for everyone not just cyclists. It's the same number of deaths as for sucides but with an inverse demographics graph of course, at least in Sweden. Those numbers are staggering and the solution to that is not to stop bicyclists navigating normal commute traffic.

I would like to say that I do look at the combined risks: There are atleast two longitudinal studies on Dutch and Danish bicyclists that show that using bicycling as an active mode of transport means longer life, basically it's an integration test were you get X% increase in a population by just commuting daily.

Here is some commedy that is obvisouly just Norwegians and Swedes being jealous, but it gives you some view on how we think of Danes, and what might affect their lives a bit more than bicycling, as with your link they are very interesting but irrelevant since they do not affect the same population groups.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-mOy8VUEBk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJBtV_S8c1c

Re: Once seniors are too old to drive, our transportation system fails them

#319

Post by emj »

ptaipale wrote: post #271
emj wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a different situation, you will also get questioning looks in Sweden when walking in the urban sprawl of upper middle class, but it's worse in the US. The OSM Surveyors Jacket came about in part because of a necessity, so it's really not only a US thing.

Really? I have walked in some Swedish upper middle class / sprawl areas, didn't notice any particular questioning looks, not to mention antagonism. Har inte gått i faktisk Solsidan dock. The only area in Scandinavia where I met actual antagonism for walking was a neighbourhood in Århus; I lead a group of 12-year-old football players in a neat dual line through it by foot, and some "youth" started to throw little rock…

The feeling can absolutely be found here too if you are unlucky. Calling it antagonistic would be hyperbolic of me.

Re: Once seniors are too old to drive, our transportation system fails them

#320

Post by bencollier49 »

avs733 wrote: post #130
virmundi wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out of curiosity, why give up your license? It's a great ID. You don't have to use it. I know plenty of people with licenses to carry concealed, but don't. To you point about car dependence, not using one is humiliating, at least for me. I live about .25 miles from my office. I walk daily to and from (twice). I feel, and have seen, people look at me like I'm poor. It is a foreign concept to many that walking or bikin…

I, and several of my friends when I used to live in Phoenix, were big walkers. Its evening? go for a walk around the neighborhood. Walk to work, even though it was like 1.5 miles...just...walk. Each of us were stopped at least once by police for being suspicious...near as I can tell (we were all >middle class white people) all that was suspicious was us walking on sidewalks. Outside of the biggest cities America is a…

I can back this up. I'm British, my father and I were in the US and went to visit my uncle. We took the train out of Boston and decided to walk from the station to his house. Got stopped by the police and questioned. Amazing.
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