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Why Don’t the 20 Cities on Amazon's HQ2 Shortlist Collectively Bargain?

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Re: Why Don’t the 20 Cities on Amazon's HQ2 Shortlist Collectively Bargain?

#131

Post by stretchwithme »

matchbok wrote: post #64
lucas_membrane wrote: post #59

Large corporations often make deals with other large corporations, and they prosper. Workers used to do better when a larger percentage of them collectively bargained. But somehow, the possibility that citizens, who are represented by various local governments, would use those governments to cooperate with each other across the lines on the map sounds like science-fiction and is disparaged as far-fetched and unworkab…

Homelessness is not Amazon's problem. Automation is good. Do you want us to ride horses to work? Agreed. Agreed.

Technology is why we have the prosperity we have.

There are plenty of countries without automation. And many allow anybody to immigrate to them. But don't expect air conditioning You'll have to hire a person to wave you with a fan.

And don't expect those job-killing tubes to bring you your water. Hire a water carrier like everybody else.

And in the truly pure countries, be prepared to drag your stuff with you without labor saving wheeled contraptions like the wheelbarrow.

Re: Why Don’t the 20 Cities on Amazon's HQ2 Shortlist Collectively Bargain?

#132

Post by TaylorAlexander »

matchbok wrote: post #64
lucas_membrane wrote: post #59

Large corporations often make deals with other large corporations, and they prosper. Workers used to do better when a larger percentage of them collectively bargained. But somehow, the possibility that citizens, who are represented by various local governments, would use those governments to cooperate with each other across the lines on the map sounds like science-fiction and is disparaged as far-fetched and unworkab…

Homelessness is not Amazon's problem. Automation is good. Do you want us to ride horses to work? Agreed. Agreed.

Automation is a tool that has both good and bad effects.

It is great that we are improving productivity but automation also furthers concentration of wealth by distributing fewer profits to workers.

It is not simply good. If we don’t understand the negative effects we are more likely to become victims of those effects. If we do understand the negative effects we can make sure to prepare ourselves for the change in the landscape.

Re: Why Don’t the 20 Cities on Amazon's HQ2 Shortlist Collectively Bargain?

#133

Post by stretchwithme »

tinymollusk wrote: post #123
s73ver_ wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Homelessness is not Amazon's problem." But it is the problem of the city. They absolutely need to keep this in mind while negotiating with Amazon, who has a reputation for driving housing prices sky high, thus exacerbating the homelessness problem. "Automation is good. Do you want us to ride horses to work?" Automation is neutral, as it does cost people jobs, not all of whom can be retrained for something else. It a…

I think automation has clearly been a net good over the past 200 years. I agree that it does have a cost, and perhaps the compound interest (environmentally) will come due very soon. But it's hard for me to see that it's neutral, given how much better our standard of living is compared to pre-industrial revolution. Perhaps you meant to say that automation also has negatives? In which case, I apologize if I sounded ha…

We would not even understand environmental pollution without automation. You can't send a human to space with binoculars to do a satellite's job, for example.

Re: Why Don’t the 20 Cities on Amazon's HQ2 Shortlist Collectively Bargain?

#134

Post by haikuginger »

refurb wrote: post #118
twostoned wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly what it is. Agreed. I got a bit excited and should add more detail: we're in a time when taxes are being shifted more and more away from those who have (rich & corporations) to those who have not. A public/private partnership seems insane to people because it is. The private companies have all the resources and need to leverage further their wealth from the public sector. They can easily front this by…

we're in a time when taxes are being shifted more and more away from those who have (rich & corporations) Actually the exact opposite is happening. The top quintile is pay a bigger share of taxes than before.[1] In 1960, the top quintile paid 56.5% of all federal tax revenue. In 2005 it was 69%. Care to revise your position based on that? [1] http://www.nbcnews.com/id/29861648/ns/politics-capitol_hill/... (table on r…

The stat you cite is actually 1979, but if you look at the income proportions[1] at that time relative to current by-quintile income proportions, the growth in taxation of the top quintile between 1979 and 2005 is slightly greater than linear with that income growth.

[1] https://www.census.gov/data/tables/time-series/demo/income-p...

Re: Why Don’t the 20 Cities on Amazon's HQ2 Shortlist Collectively Bargain?

#135

Post by DSingularity »

untog wrote: post #101
matchbok wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Homelessness is not Amazon's problem. Automation is good. Do you want us to ride horses to work? Agreed. Agreed.

> Homelessness is not Amazon's problem. Not directly, no. But Amazon is based in a city that has a large homeless population. It is in the interest of their employees to see that population fall, therefore it also ought to be in Amazon's interest. > Automation is good. Do you want us to ride horses to work? Of course it is. But I see this reaction a lot - that anyone asking questions about our automated future is som…

If they refuse to answer the points we are raising by attacking us trying represent us as regressive idiots then attack them back. Make them feel like greedy pigs willing to let the world starve to make more money.

Is there any doubt that if Amazon or any corporation would not hesitate to eliminate 90% of the jobs in this world if they had the means to do it cheaper with robotics/ai/cloud tech? They couldn't care less if it meant plunging half the population of this planet into crippling poverty.

Its beyond frustrating the amount of attacks you face for inquiring about the livelihoods and future of people whose jobs are replaced by AWS processes.

You want to automate the world? Great. Ease it in over 2 generations and only when humanity overcomes the greediness that allows us to accept wealth inequality and more money than we can ever dream of spending despite half the world living in poverty.

Re: Why Don’t the 20 Cities on Amazon's HQ2 Shortlist Collectively Bargain?

#136

Post by zaroth »

RangerScience wrote: post #40
zaroth wrote: post #28

I completely disagree with the “race to the bottom” framing of the idea that cities shouldn’t compete to provide the best services for the commercial enterprises which reside there. At the 50-75 year timeframe we are talking about at least hundreds of billions of dollars of economic value, if not trillions. The clustering effect of becoming Silicon Valley 2 cannot be overstated. My personal opinion is cities should b…

> We’ve proven that this public/private partnership is basically the most effective growth engine we’ve got I believe you and would like to learn more. Do you have some sources I can look into?

There’s a technical term for PPP - Public Private Partnership which isn’t exactly what’s happening with HQ2 but the effects are similar. In other words, even though HQ2 isn’t literally a train station, a campus that size functions in many ways like public infrastructure.

Maybe a good place to start;

https://pppknowledgelab.org/guide/sections/83-what-is-the-pp...

Re: Why Don’t the 20 Cities on Amazon's HQ2 Shortlist Collectively Bargain?

#137

Post by Kalium »

joeax wrote: post #129
Kalium wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can definitely think of worse places than San Marcos. Though being outside Austin proper means giving up anything remotely resembling usable public transit. And in all honesty, Austin could be reasonably characterized as outgrown and gentrified already. Plus, SA has already played this game. It got them Rackspace. Which, uh, could maybe be going better.

I had Dell in mind (being located north in Round Rock) in mind. I have friends in Austin and most enjoy living closer to downtown, and I guess commuting sucks there going north, so heading south seems like a logical choice to build a HQ. Besides Rackspace they have a bunch of defense contractors and USAA, but little else I believe.

That's a fairly accurate characterization of San Antonio. The talent pool is somewhat limited and often very specialized. The city is sprawling, so public transit is a bit lacking. SAT isn't really a major international airport, so most major destinations require changing planes at a bigger airport.

It could be argued that UTSA is starting to count as a major university, with recent expansion and investments. But the CS program has yet to really prove itself.

Re: Why Don’t the 20 Cities on Amazon's HQ2 Shortlist Collectively Bargain?

#138

Post by matchbok »

TaylorAlexander wrote: post #132
matchbok wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Homelessness is not Amazon's problem. Automation is good. Do you want us to ride horses to work? Agreed. Agreed.

Automation is a tool that has both good and bad effects. It is great that we are improving productivity but automation also furthers concentration of wealth by distributing fewer profits to workers. It is not simply good. If we don’t understand the negative effects we are more likely to become victims of those effects. If we do understand the negative effects we can make sure to prepare ourselves for the change in th…

Agreed, but I'd say automation also opens up new opportunities as well.

Re: Why Don’t the 20 Cities on Amazon's HQ2 Shortlist Collectively Bargain?

#139

Post by jroseattle »

This entire thought process assumes that tax incentives and such are the difference maker in this process. That it's an auction that goes to the highest bidder. This is highly inconsistent with Amazon's approach for long-term projects.

Do they want their HQ2 home to have some skin in the game? For sure. But what form does that take?

Suppose a city could offer Amazon $50MM in tax credits over some duration of time. Suppose another city offered to invest into local infrastructure investment -- roads, transit, broadband, etc. While $50MM is a lot of money (even to Amazon), the second alternative is much more appealing.

The HQ2 winner is going to be someone who is forward-thinking, not just whoever rounded up the best gift basket.

Re: Why Don’t the 20 Cities on Amazon's HQ2 Shortlist Collectively Bargain?

#140

Post by xienze »

ImSkeptical wrote: post #116
40acres wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amazon also provides high wage workers who are taxed on their income, and who generate economic activity which can also be taxed and used by municipalities to try to solve homelessness. On net I wonder what the benefit / determent of Amazon moving to a city would have on homelessness.

Another confounding factor is that the workforce tends to be left leaning. Left leaning population, plus new money for taxes means more social services for the homeless. More social services means homeless from less accommodating communities will move in. I'd also be curious in a study on Amazon's effect on the homeless.

> More social services means homeless from less accommodating communities will move in.

I don't know why this point seems to escape people in SF, LA, Seattle, etc. If you're homeless, you're gonna want to be where the most benefits and relaxed attitudes toward homelessness are. It's not hard to understand why this problem is at its worst in the most progressive cities.

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