The Challenges of Being in the New Contract Workforce • Hacker News Board

Re: The Challenges of Being in the New Contract Workforce

#51

Post by mi100hael » Tue, Jan 23, 2018, 6:06 PM UTC

ubernostrum wrote: post #32

mi100hael wrote: post #8

Employer "benefits" are things that are all freely available a la carte. There's no reason contractors can't buy health insurance from a marketplace or contribute to an IRA and wind up with the same end result. You as a contractor just have to factor those additional costs in to your decision-making process when evaluating compensation packages.

OK, so you be sure, as a lone individual, to tell Uber you'd like to negotiate a higher contract rate with them in order to cover your expenses. And then when they laugh in your face, try it with another company. And another. And another. And let me know how it goes.

If someone is laughing in your face everywhere you go (especially with unemployment at an all-time low right now) then you probably need to recalibrate your expectations. However I'd venture a guess that most people aren't actually asking for higher rates. Most people do a terrible job negotiating for compensation (and by terrible I mean they don't even try).

http://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-negotiation/

Re: The Challenges of Being in the New Contract Workforce

#52

Post by mi100hael » Tue, Jan 23, 2018, 6:07 PM UTC

noxxten wrote: post #24

mi100hael wrote: post #8

Employer "benefits" are things that are all freely available a la carte. There's no reason contractors can't buy health insurance from a marketplace or contribute to an IRA and wind up with the same end result. You as a contractor just have to factor those additional costs in to your decision-making process when evaluating compensation packages.

The "benefit" portion of that statement is that the employers typically take on a portion of that cost so it's reduced for the employee. Have you ever filed taxes as a freelancer? You nearly pay double because you're both the employer AND employee in that situation... The same goes for other benefits as well like healthcare - There are no group discounts when you're the only one getting coverage.

Yep, I've been there. Like I said:

> You as a contractor just have to factor those additional costs in to your decision-making process when evaluating compensation packages.

Re: The Challenges of Being in the New Contract Workforce

#53

Post by lovich » Tue, Jan 23, 2018, 6:08 PM UTC

ttoinou wrote: post #46

zenlikethat wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Employers can provide benefits for cheaper due to economies of scale buying a lot of them from big insurance orgs. Individual contractors, even if they weren’t already being pushed into possibly-exploitative relationships with companies like Uber et al., don’t get those discounts. Life on the other side of the API layer ain’t so rosy.

I don't agree at all, and even if having an employer is better for economies of scale this doesn't mean we should force employers to give benefits (employers could negotiate deals and propose them to their employees). The economies of scale argument is not always a good argument because you need to specify where does the deal cut comes from. I think it comes from the fact that the overhead in negotiating a huge amoun…

How are you independent if you have to band together with other people to get the same benefits other groups have?

You cant rely on a group and be independent at the same time!

Re: The Challenges of Being in the New Contract Workforce

#54

Post by humanrebar » Tue, Jan 23, 2018, 6:09 PM UTC

Ancalagon wrote: post #35

I'm sure I'll get some flak for saying this on HN, but I would encourage everyone not to take a contracting gig unless you're absolutely desperate for work. I don't believe most people are cut out to properly negotiate the pay for a contracting position (in that they do not know how to properly account for all of the benefits they are not getting). And by taking a contracting position you are basically encouraging th…

Contract work should be fine. I frankly blame the American government for tying healthcare to not just employment status but particular employer so tightly for so long. It is frankly ridiculous and disgraceful that our political leaders are not held to account for this.

The early Tea Party was supposed to be organized around a theme of "stop the nonsense and denial!" with respect to these kinds of problems, but it was quickly corrupted by the ignorant and by the people who were hoping to find ignorance. Rather than turning energy and community action into positive change, they were derided and stymied.

So now we have Trump who is basically nonsense and denial personified.

Not that Obamacare did anything to get us off the employer healthcare crutch. In that respect, things seem to have just gotten worse.

And I'm a person that doesn't think everything needs to be political! It's just hard to get around the fact that American is grossly misgoverned here. But the American voter can't bring itself to vote on real issues instead of rooting for its political team. This gives me little hope that we'll ever get the 2/3 to 3/4 consensus we'll need to practically fix this (1).

(1) Even if we don't need that many people agreeing to pass legislation, I think things like reforming entire sectors of the economy and employer/employee relationships requires very broad support to be both fair and lasting. Having 51% of voters pee in the cornflakes of the other 49% doesn't get us anywhere. Hopefully that's clear given American politics since 2006 or so.

EDIT: To tie this back to contract work, contract work is great and provides needed dynamism and small-business know-how to the economy. But it's very risky. One needs an independent source of income (other investments, working professional spouse) or a big pile of capital so you can weather ups and downs, take health sabbaticals if needed, hire temp help sporadically, etc.

Re: The Challenges of Being in the New Contract Workforce

#55

Post by virmundi » Tue, Jan 23, 2018, 6:09 PM UTC

FLUX-YOU wrote: post #26

SamReidHughes wrote: post #4

Good (edit: in the long run). The services they list, like health insurance, retirement, or pensions, should be decoupled from your employer.

How do you get a 401k match from a private company? If all contractors are making 20% above a FTE, that's fine, but that's a decent chunk of change if you're high salary.

The other thing to think about is flexibility in not being in an employer backed 401k. When I was in one the best average return was 4%. Independently I can get 15% through etfs that track the S&P. I can also get 30-50% playing in riskier tens like oil or commodities. While some argue against that, at least I now have the agency to decide.

Re: The Challenges of Being in the New Contract Workforce

#56

Post by Ancalagon » Tue, Jan 23, 2018, 6:10 PM UTC

NicoJuicy wrote: post #40

Ancalagon wrote: post #35

I'm sure I'll get some flak for saying this on HN, but I would encourage everyone not to take a contracting gig unless you're absolutely desperate for work. I don't believe most people are cut out to properly negotiate the pay for a contracting position (in that they do not know how to properly account for all of the benefits they are not getting). And by taking a contracting position you are basically encouraging th…

Why should HN disagree with you? I completely agree, I sometimes have problems asking for the right amount of money. And I do it more than the average. It's hard to demand what you want

I don't think HN should disagree with me. In fact I think everyone on HN should repeat what I said to everyone they know . Don't take contract work, unless you're absolutely desperate. The reason I was being so defensive though was because I know there are a lot of freelancers on HN. I'm not trying to bash their lifestyles or work choices, just pointing out that taking this kind of work (whether as a software engineer or as a janitor) sets a precedent that encourages employers to further view their employees as red numbers on a spreadsheet to be marginalized and reduced. But thank you for the comment, I get somewhat heated when this topic comes up because it seems like such an obviously bad deal for so many people.

Re: The Challenges of Being in the New Contract Workforce

#57

Post by twobyfour » Tue, Jan 23, 2018, 6:12 PM UTC

Ancalagon wrote: post #35

I'm sure I'll get some flak for saying this on HN, but I would encourage everyone not to take a contracting gig unless you're absolutely desperate for work. I don't believe most people are cut out to properly negotiate the pay for a contracting position (in that they do not know how to properly account for all of the benefits they are not getting). And by taking a contracting position you are basically encouraging th…

Most of the "gig economy" is not contracts like a freelancer negotiates. It's tons of tiny jobs at non-negotiable rates like Uber or Fiverr pay their "contractors".

I agree that they're terrible jobs that one should take only if truly desperate for work or perhaps to supplement another income. But talking about whether people taking them are cut out to negotiate contracts totally misses the point.

Re: The Challenges of Being in the New Contract Workforce

#58

Post by gadders » Tue, Jan 23, 2018, 6:13 PM UTC

I guess it must be different in the US vs the UK. Contracting in the UK (at least in the IT world) is very popular and quite lucrative. (I guess not having to worry about health insurance helps somewhat, though)

I've been permanent, and I've been contract, I really hope I get to finish the rest of my career as a contractor.

Re: The Challenges of Being in the New Contract Workforce

#59

Post by twobyfour » Tue, Jan 23, 2018, 6:15 PM UTC

lev99 wrote: post #17

Is anyone here a member of the mentioned freelancer union? I'd be interested in hearing a member's perspective.

Former member of Freelancer's Union here, though the only service I ever used was the health insurance. A decade ago it was pretty solid, and certainly better and cheaper than you could get on the individual markets. AFAICT these days it's about on par with the open ACA markets.

What is it you want to know, though?

Re: The Challenges of Being in the New Contract Workforce

#60

Post by MrMember » Tue, Jan 23, 2018, 6:16 PM UTC

Ancalagon wrote: post #35

I'm sure I'll get some flak for saying this on HN, but I would encourage everyone not to take a contracting gig unless you're absolutely desperate for work. I don't believe most people are cut out to properly negotiate the pay for a contracting position (in that they do not know how to properly account for all of the benefits they are not getting). And by taking a contracting position you are basically encouraging th…

My first job out of college was a contracted position and it sucked. The salary was average and the benefits nonexistent. I was let go along with all the other contractors when the market the company was in took a downturn and it was probably the best thing that could have happened to my career. The job helped me build some work experience for my resume but I would never take another contracting position unless the pay was extraordinary or I had no other choice.