Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Tiny, Wealthy Qatar Goes Its Own Way, and Pays for It

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

121–130 of 148 posts

Re: Tiny, Wealthy Qatar Goes Its Own Way, and Pays for It

#121

Post by zapfranklin »

ptaipale wrote: post #116
zapfranklin wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Turkey has the second largest standing military force in NATO. They are also, well, in NATO. The current situation is uncomfortable for a whole lot of people, but when push comes to shove, I don't see how a proxy force with questionable allegiance stands up to a NATO country with a massive air and ground force.

NATO is hardly going to support Turkey's adventures in Syria so it'll have little relevance for that fight. And while the Turkish have far more firepower and air power than Kurds, the terrain is extremely favourable for a defending force, particularly when it is as motivated and well-trained as the Kurdish fighters. A Turkish attack can become a debacle, or at militarily "best", a massacre of civilian population resu…

I don't disagree, but they certainly won't support the kurds' efforts against a NATO member.

Don't misunderstand that I think this is a) a good idea, or b) ultimately going to work out the way Turkey wants it to work out.

I don't think the kurds will choose to live and die by Afrin.

Re: Tiny, Wealthy Qatar Goes Its Own Way, and Pays for It

#122

Post by zapfranklin »

indubitable wrote: post #112
zapfranklin wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hersh's recent work has been pointedly criticized as that of a conspiracy theorist versus an investigative journalist. [1] Generalizing reporting in "most US mainstream outlets" as "childlike misrepresentation" is the kind of fake news doubt-sowing that is killing our (America's) relationship with facts. There has been some excellent reporting on the relatively complex Syrian Civil War from stalwarts such as the Wash…

In the end none of us are on the ground and so we're left to rely on the integrity of the individuals and organizations that are reporting on issues. If you would rather rely on Vox, WaPo, Buzzfeed, and increasingly even the NYT for in depth and critical analysis then that's certainly your prerogative. At the same time, hailing them as beacons of integrity and truth is unreasonable. They increasingly routinely print…

I am not sure where I said anything about "beacons of integrity and truth," but I will take institutions that routinely call themselves out for their mistakes over Hersh who appears to stand by all of his reporting despite serious flaws in his stories.

I get my news from the sources you mentioned along with many others. I was taking issue with your disposal of babies with bathwater. If you are discounting information coming from flawed institutions with actual policies and procedures in favor of dubiously sourced "investigative" reporting by people like Hersh, we are in deep doo-doo.

FWIW, I am about as close to being on the ground as just about anyone outside of the actual participants in the war.

Re: Tiny, Wealthy Qatar Goes Its Own Way, and Pays for It

#123

Post by danmaz74 »

mkalygin wrote: post #118
danmaz74 wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're interested, I regularly read what some of Putin's supporter I know post on Reddit (mostly coming from RT and Sputnik). This way, I keep up on that kind of propaganda without having to read all the Russian media agencies directly. To anticipate your next point: is there propaganda in the West? Yes, absolutely. Is it the same level BS as Putin's propaganda? No way - in the West there are just so many more ind…

I'm Russian. And while I agree that we have a propaganda, I can't say that the situation is any better in the West. When I was living in UK for a while, I was amazed by how some really smart people have 100% level of trust to national media, so that they can't even perceive another point of view. All arguments were based on the fact that their media is historically old and never lies because it can't risk its reputat…

I agree with you that there are many people in the West who have (almost) 100% trust in national media, and that that level of trust is misplaced, but I don't agree at all that the situation is the same as in Russia (where I've been and where I know some people).

The difference is that here in the West there are lots of agendas being pushed, but there are also lots of competing ones, lots of different points of view, and much more freedom to express them. The end result is - or at least was, the situation isn't improving lately - that the government can't get away with lies as big as the ones Putin pushes (eg: "we have no soldiers in Ukraine" "we're never going to annex Crimea" etc. etc.)

Re: Tiny, Wealthy Qatar Goes Its Own Way, and Pays for It

#124

Post by ptaipale »

zapfranklin wrote: post #121
ptaipale wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NATO is hardly going to support Turkey's adventures in Syria so it'll have little relevance for that fight. And while the Turkish have far more firepower and air power than Kurds, the terrain is extremely favourable for a defending force, particularly when it is as motivated and well-trained as the Kurdish fighters. A Turkish attack can become a debacle, or at militarily "best", a massacre of civilian population resu…

I don't disagree, but they certainly won't support the kurds' efforts against a NATO member. Don't misunderstand that I think this is a) a good idea, or b) ultimately going to work out the way Turkey wants it to work out. I don't think the kurds will choose to live and die by Afrin.

Yes, NATO as an organisation will hardly support Kurds either, but I can see that individual NATO members as well as other countries will start giving more and more moral and possibly economical support.

Re: Tiny, Wealthy Qatar Goes Its Own Way, and Pays for It

#125

Post by WillReplyfFood »

simias wrote: post #110
WillReplyfFood wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could reroot the pipeline through israel? or egypt? The syrian crisis was a sunni -shia powerblock escalation. The problem i have is that we - the west side with the wrong faction here. Assad had many minorities somehow getting along, no sunni country has that. Iran is quite inventive - even if the relgious fanatics try to come down on that. Western money flows through saudi arabia an finances wahabit missionarys…

Do you think hacker news is the good place to find the answer to such a question? This is the place where you ask about Javascript libraries and Go vs. Rust comparisons, not geopolitical advice. That's why I tend to dismiss any comment in this thread that's not properly sourced.

You are propably right. But sometimes such discussion can meta-stasize into intersting ones.

For example- what is the definition of a good guy? Is a good guy something stable, reliable, someone behaving reproducable?

Is a good guy somebody who gives you a short term reward, and costs you dearly in the long run? Or can a good guy be someone who costs you short term, but becomes a long term positiv force. What if somebody is hostile, but stabilizes out of self-interest a otherwise negative are in the world.

Its all very complicated, and the dynamics playing into it, can be horrifying for anyone idealistic.

Re: Tiny, Wealthy Qatar Goes Its Own Way, and Pays for It

#126

Post by Reason077 »

geezerjay wrote: post #103
Reason077 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It would be cheaper to build through Iraq than destabilize an entire country." Except that at the time, Iraq was itself a highly unstable conflict zone. Building a pipeline in those conditions was not viable, and probably still isn't.

> Except that at the time, Iraq was itself a highly unstable conflict zone. I fail to see how turning Syria into an unstable conflict zone would help.

Nobody set out to cause a long-lasting, destructive conflict in Syria. Those who were backing the opposition factions were no doubt hoping for a quick, orderly transition of power. But obviously it didn't work out that way.

Re: Tiny, Wealthy Qatar Goes Its Own Way, and Pays for It

#127

Post by mkalygin »

danmaz74 wrote: post #123
mkalygin wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm Russian. And while I agree that we have a propaganda, I can't say that the situation is any better in the West. When I was living in UK for a while, I was amazed by how some really smart people have 100% level of trust to national media, so that they can't even perceive another point of view. All arguments were based on the fact that their media is historically old and never lies because it can't risk its reputat…

I agree with you that there are many people in the West who have (almost) 100% trust in national media, and that that level of trust is misplaced, but I don't agree at all that the situation is the same as in Russia (where I've been and where I know some people). The difference is that here in the West there are lots of agendas being pushed, but there are also lots of competing ones, lots of different points of view,…

I cannot disagree with your point. But we still have a lot of people who refuse to get information from propaganda sources. And this is a good sign. I hope we will get even better in this in the future and there will be more freedom in media.

Re: Tiny, Wealthy Qatar Goes Its Own Way, and Pays for It

#128

Post by danmaz74 »

mkalygin wrote: post #127
danmaz74 wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you that there are many people in the West who have (almost) 100% trust in national media, and that that level of trust is misplaced, but I don't agree at all that the situation is the same as in Russia (where I've been and where I know some people). The difference is that here in the West there are lots of agendas being pushed, but there are also lots of competing ones, lots of different points of view,…

I cannot disagree with your point. But we still have a lot of people who refuse to get information from propaganda sources. And this is a good sign. I hope we will get even better in this in the future and there will be more freedom in media.

Absolutely, I didn't mean that all Russians buy the propaganda - I also know how distrustful of the government you are on average. But it's a fact that it's very difficult to get good news sources for those who only understand Russian.

Re: Tiny, Wealthy Qatar Goes Its Own Way, and Pays for It

#129

Post by guilhas »

hitekker wrote: post #66
nikcub wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Europe, US and Turkey was the big alliance which tried to take down Syria. This isn't true - they have all backed different factions in the conflict against the Syrian government, against ISIS and today against one another in Idlib. Assuming they defeated the Syria government this conflict was always going to split down the differing interests between the Saudis and Qataris The succinct way (as…

A well thought-out and researched response to a breathless conspiracy theory. Nicely done.

Yes this stuff has been endlessly thought-out and researched. Obviously USA and Saudi Arabia are there fighting for freedom and human rights! * Sarcasm * in case it is not clear

Re: Tiny, Wealthy Qatar Goes Its Own Way, and Pays for It

#130

Post by nikcub »

mdekkers wrote: post #83
nikcub wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have a link to the original cable? A lot of what is written there doesn't pass the basic smell test of anybody even vaguely familiar with the conflict

https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/06DAMASCUS5399_a.html

I know that cable - it's rather famous for predicting a lot of what took place but is far from a US plot to overthrow Assad
Post reply on HN