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Perl 6 Optimism

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Re: Perl 6 Optimism

#11

Post by yesbut »

ionforce wrote: post #4
joosters wrote: post #2

I don’t understand why Perl 5 and 6 are still tied together as if they are the same language. There’s no compatibility between the two. You can’t write a library that works in both versions, so you lose CPAN and the thousands of packages that make Perl so powerful. I don’t think there’s even any reliable way to translate Perl 5 source code. This is a vastly larger change than python 2->3, and people are still using p…

Should have chosen a different name for the language.

I feel that there should probably be a name change, but ultimately I don't really care. I am enjoying the language and they can call it whatever they want. If and when they change the name I will just refer to it as the new name.

Re: Perl 6 Optimism

#12

Post by yorwba »

stesch wrote: post #5

I'm still wondering why they use non ASCII characters for operators.

Why not? It's a neat way of showing off fundamental Unicode support, and AFAIK there are ASCII equivalents for all of them, in case you have no idea how to enter ⤐ or whatever.

Re: Perl 6 Optimism

#13

Post by c256 »

baybal2 wrote: post #7

I used perl when dinosaurs still roamed the land. Can somebody explain why it took so long for Perl 6? I read first p6/parrot vm textbook as a schoolboy more than a decade ago.

Honestly? Because Perl 5 was ‘good enough’ and widely installed, and then critical mass moved on to python and JavaScript (which both then developed their own version skew issues).

Re: Perl 6 Optimism

#14

Post by joosters »

zura wrote: post #6
joosters wrote: post #2

I don’t understand why Perl 5 and 6 are still tied together as if they are the same language. There’s no compatibility between the two. You can’t write a library that works in both versions, so you lose CPAN and the thousands of packages that make Perl so powerful. I don’t think there’s even any reliable way to translate Perl 5 source code. This is a vastly larger change than python 2->3, and people are still using p…

You can actually use Perl 5 and even Python modules from Perl 6: https://github.com/niner

There are gotchas and unsupported functionality (e.g. 'since Perl 6 does not have the same concept of "context", Perl 5 methods are always called in list context.') which effectively mean that you've got no idea if library 'foo' will work or not without a thorough review of the code.

At best, it's a hack. Impressive, sure, but not something that you could rely upon. There's still no sane upgrade path here.

Re: Perl 6 Optimism

#15

Post by cesarb »

yorwba wrote: post #12
stesch wrote: post #5

I'm still wondering why they use non ASCII characters for operators.

Why not? It's a neat way of showing off fundamental Unicode support, and AFAIK there are ASCII equivalents for all of them, in case you have no idea how to enter ⤐ or whatever.

> in case you have no idea how to enter ⤐ or whatever.

Did you mean to type a black square there, or is my Android phone missing a font? In any case, this shows a potential issue with using Unicode characters for operators or identifiers: unless it's from a common Unicode block (like basic Greek letters), it might not be readable. It's not just writing that can be a problem.

Re: Perl 6 Optimism

#16

Post by iainmerrick »

yorwba wrote: post #12
stesch wrote: post #5

I'm still wondering why they use non ASCII characters for operators.

Why not? It's a neat way of showing off fundamental Unicode support, and AFAIK there are ASCII equivalents for all of them, in case you have no idea how to enter ⤐ or whatever.

Which do people tend to use? Are there tools for converting back and forth?

I am tempted by the idea of being able to type e.g. ½x² in mathematical code, but overall it sounds like much more trouble than it's worth.

Re: Perl 6 Optimism

#17

Post by joosters »

simias wrote: post #8
joosters wrote: post #2

I don’t understand why Perl 5 and 6 are still tied together as if they are the same language. There’s no compatibility between the two. You can’t write a library that works in both versions, so you lose CPAN and the thousands of packages that make Perl so powerful. I don’t think there’s even any reliable way to translate Perl 5 source code. This is a vastly larger change than python 2->3, and people are still using p…

Pretty much. I used to use Perl 5 a lot but I never considered using Perl 6 and eventually moved on from the Perl ecosystem altogether. The huge advantage of Perl ~10 years ago was the massive amount of CPAN packages but in the meantime python & friends mostly caught up in my experience. Meanwhile the shiny new revolutionary Perl 6 took forever to release and when it finally did nobody cared anymore. Quoting Wikipedi…

I agree, it definitely hurt mainline Perl development when Perl 6 was this promised great new thing. At least Perl 5 never got abandoned, and there is development and bugfixing still going on today.

Perl 5 has a feeling of being 'complete' as a language. I guess this makes it unsexy and it'll never be the cutting edge where all the cool devs want to work, but it's rock solid stable and reliable.

Now, if only Perl 5 could get a JIT compiler...

Re: Perl 6 Optimism

#18

Post by collyw »

simias wrote: post #8
joosters wrote: post #2

I don’t understand why Perl 5 and 6 are still tied together as if they are the same language. There’s no compatibility between the two. You can’t write a library that works in both versions, so you lose CPAN and the thousands of packages that make Perl so powerful. I don’t think there’s even any reliable way to translate Perl 5 source code. This is a vastly larger change than python 2->3, and people are still using p…

Pretty much. I used to use Perl 5 a lot but I never considered using Perl 6 and eventually moved on from the Perl ecosystem altogether. The huge advantage of Perl ~10 years ago was the massive amount of CPAN packages but in the meantime python & friends mostly caught up in my experience. Meanwhile the shiny new revolutionary Perl 6 took forever to release and when it finally did nobody cared anymore. Quoting Wikipedi…

The failure to admit it was going slowly was another killer. It will be released at Christmas, we just aren't telling you which one. After a few years of hoping, I gave up and am in the world of Python and Django. Its a shame as Perl feels like a more powerful / expressive language than Python.

Re: Perl 6 Optimism

#19

Post by collyw »

yesbut wrote: post #9
stesch wrote: post #5

I'm still wondering why they use non ASCII characters for operators.

Perl 6 has ASCII versions of every unicode operator: https://docs.perl6.org/language/unicode_ascii

Is there a key for it on my keyboard though?

Re: Perl 6 Optimism

#20

Post by vgy7ujm »

collyw wrote: post #18
simias wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty much. I used to use Perl 5 a lot but I never considered using Perl 6 and eventually moved on from the Perl ecosystem altogether. The huge advantage of Perl ~10 years ago was the massive amount of CPAN packages but in the meantime python & friends mostly caught up in my experience. Meanwhile the shiny new revolutionary Perl 6 took forever to release and when it finally did nobody cared anymore. Quoting Wikipedi…

The failure to admit it was going slowly was another killer. It will be released at Christmas, we just aren't telling you which one. After a few years of hoping, I gave up and am in the world of Python and Django. Its a shame as Perl feels like a more powerful / expressive language than Python.

This.

Being "forced to use Python" sucks as a Perl developer.

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