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Tesla ‘on Autopilot’ slams into parked fire truck on freeway

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Re: Tesla ‘on Autopilot’ slams into parked fire truck on freeway

#151

Post by sowbug »

0xffff2 wrote: post #116
sowbug wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla autopilot is more capable than an airplane autopilot. An airplane on autopilot will crash into stationary objects in its path, by design . Thus, airplane autopilots require full pilot attention as well. This thread happens with every Tesla crash, by the way: 1. Tesla crashes 2. Driver says autopilot was engaged 3. Long debate on HN about exact meaning of word "autopilot" 4. 9 times out of 10, Tesla log says aut…

Can someone explain why this is being downvoted? At least with regard to airplane autopilots, it is completely acurate.

I can explain. For about the first five minutes of the comment's life, the first sentence used a snippy tone. I got the message and removed the snippy part.

Re: Tesla ‘on Autopilot’ slams into parked fire truck on freeway

#152

Post by greglindahl »

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #12
rootusrootus wrote: post #2

I wonder if it is imprudent to create too many vehicles that have partial self-driving capability before we have ones that can do 100% of it. Instead of to the point where you can take your attention away from the road, but not to the point where it can reliably avoid accidents on your behalf. Too many people aren't wise enough to use the partial autonomous technology without abusing it.

People have been safely and intelligently using cruise control for... decades? It is a partial automation solution that reduces half of what you have to manage when controlling the car (how fast you're going). I suspect the primary problem is not the partial autonomous technology, but the marketing which is convincing people they can trust it. Nobody ever told you your cruise control means you don't have to pay atten…

So, you're saying that Tesla is wrong, without even bothering to collect any data about whether or not Tesla owners are confused about the capabilities of the system?

Re: Tesla ‘on Autopilot’ slams into parked fire truck on freeway

#153

Post by greglindahl »

taneq wrote: post #97

As I understand it (and please correct me if I'm wrong) the automatic emergency braking (AEB) system is separate from the autosteer system on a Tesla. It seems to me that this kind of incident is a result of AEB failure, not of autosteer failure. I wonder how Tesla's AEB stacks up against similar systems on other vehicles? There are a lot of vehicles on the road now with automatic braking, but we don't see every sing…

AEB doesn't prevent all accidents, a car can only brake so much.

Re: Tesla ‘on Autopilot’ slams into parked fire truck on freeway

#154

Post by [deleted] »

jsjohnst wrote: post #127
nightski wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An aircraft autopilot is not designed to automatically avoid collisions with other traffic or animals. It's purpose is only to maintain course, speed, and altitude. In VFR conditions while autopilots are useful continuous scanning of your surroundings is necessary. Meanwhile a Tesla "autopilot" is designed to drive in traffic with other vehicles.

> An aircraft autopilot is not designed to automatically avoid collisions The A380 begs to differ... http://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-releases/en/2009/08/eas...

[deleted]

Re: Tesla ‘on Autopilot’ slams into parked fire truck on freeway

#155

Post by nightski »

jsjohnst wrote: post #127
nightski wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An aircraft autopilot is not designed to automatically avoid collisions with other traffic or animals. It's purpose is only to maintain course, speed, and altitude. In VFR conditions while autopilots are useful continuous scanning of your surroundings is necessary. Meanwhile a Tesla "autopilot" is designed to drive in traffic with other vehicles.

> An aircraft autopilot is not designed to automatically avoid collisions The A380 begs to differ... http://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-releases/en/2009/08/eas...

Yes I was aware of TCAS. There are some cool technologies out there. I am pretty sure out of all aircraft with autopilots, the amount with this technology is extraordinarily low. Especially if you are considering only personal aircraft and not ones designed to carry over 1,000 passengers.

Re: Tesla ‘on Autopilot’ slams into parked fire truck on freeway

#156

Post by [deleted] »

manicdee wrote: post #117
nightski wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An aircraft autopilot is not designed to automatically avoid collisions with other traffic or animals. It's purpose is only to maintain course, speed, and altitude. In VFR conditions while autopilots are useful continuous scanning of your surroundings is necessary. Meanwhile a Tesla "autopilot" is designed to drive in traffic with other vehicles.

The aircraft autopilot can also fly a route and handle everything from takeoff to landing, but pilots don’t rely on it to do so. Tesla Autopilot can keep pace with surrounding traffic and stay between marked lines but does not recognise stationary obstacles. They are very much the same in that they automate the mundane parts of the operation of the vehicle. They are also the same in that they do not know how to handl…

[deleted]

Re: Tesla ‘on Autopilot’ slams into parked fire truck on freeway

#157

Post by kakwa_ »

frgtpsswrdlame wrote: post #17

You know I take issue with Tesla on these incidents. They're trying to have it both ways. They market it as 'autopilot' to appeal to the dream of complete self-driving but if an accident actually happens it can never be the fault of autopilot. After all it's required for the driver to be paying attention so if they didn't override autopilot it's obvious they weren't paying attention. Really I'd like to see the govern…

Also, requiring the driver to pay attention on what the automation do is a bit unrealistic.

It's really difficult to stay focus and (mostly) do nothing at the same time. Monitoring automation is boring. Also switching from a passive mode to an active mode in few seconds in case of an emergency might be really hard.

I'm not sure the Tesla "autopilot" is designed in a way that really keeps the driver in the loop and active enough.

Re: Tesla ‘on Autopilot’ slams into parked fire truck on freeway

#158

Post by benfar »

nikkwong wrote: post #88
jread wrote: post #81

As a current Tesla owner and frequent autopilot user I can attest to this being a scenario where autopilot has not worked for me - traveling at high speed and approaching a stopped vehicle from a distance. I now always take it off autopilot when this occurs because it will not brake in time.

From a technical perspective—why would Tesla not have taken more care to address this scenario? It seems like low hanging fruit in comparison to other challenges that autopilot has to be able to handle.

They did address it, starting with software 8.0. See http://www.tesla.com/blog/upgrading-autopilot-seeing-world-r... . Chances are that evidence will show that the vehicle detected the fire truck, gave audible warning, and then started braking. That's all if the driver had not disabled forward collision warning and automatic emergency braking. They are standard safety features and unless disabled are active during manual driving as well as when Autopilot is active. I don't work for Tesla, but I am very familiar with this type of technology and Tesla vehicles' owner manual descriptions of operation.

Re: Tesla ‘on Autopilot’ slams into parked fire truck on freeway

#159

Post by benfar »

taneq wrote: post #97

As I understand it (and please correct me if I'm wrong) the automatic emergency braking (AEB) system is separate from the autosteer system on a Tesla. It seems to me that this kind of incident is a result of AEB failure, not of autosteer failure. I wonder how Tesla's AEB stacks up against similar systems on other vehicles? There are a lot of vehicles on the road now with automatic braking, but we don't see every sing…

Tesla's AEB likely triggers earlier than many others. See this example http://youtu.be/FadR7ETT_1k . The vehicles ahead were moving, but after http://www.tesla.com/blog/upgrading-autopilot-seeing-world-r... was implemented in software 8.0, I believe the same was possible for already-stopped vehicles, too. We'll find out in the accident report, and perhaps directly from Tesla after they retrieve the vehicle's data.

Re: Tesla ‘on Autopilot’ slams into parked fire truck on freeway

#160

Post by ojosilva »

To me Tesla autopilot accidents are like airliner crashes: they lead to a safer system, one that in the future will avoid the same mistake again. Compare that to human-operated vehicles: we keep getting into the same accidents over and over. The fact that autopilot data gets sent back to the factory, is analyzed and results are fed back into the the production line is a game changer that will help Tesla keep ahead of the competition a while to come. Right now the rate and importance of autopilot system interations are an order of magnitude higher than other auto-safety evolution from the past.
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