Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

lkml.iu.edu

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

561–570 of 702 posts

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#561

Post by DoreenMichele »

cromwellian wrote: post #516

A lot of people trying to defend being a jerk as necessary in these circumstances. I think Google culture proves the opposite: Googley code and peer reviews, blameless postmortems, and a host of other mechanisms that de-escalate and de-personalize things. The Meltdown work at Google probably didn't begin with a rant about morons. It's possible to construct a culture where people can air grievances and criticize other…

I am finding the comments here about how Linus needs to behave properly, like they do at Google, amusing given how often Google and other for profit companies are portrayed as evil empires and FOSS is portrayed as the only moral antidote to the evils of capitalism.

Let Linus swear a little and suddenly those roles are entirely reversed? Really?

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#562

Post by Retra »

piyush_soni wrote: post #257
icelancer wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Having a Linus who doesn't yell at people And having my cake and eating it too in every scenario would be great. That's not how things work all the time. It's up to you to deal with it, not Linus to change. He's the scarce resource. He has the leverage. You're just someone on the Internet mad.

Again, your understanding is that intelligent people have the right to abuse. That's just akin to supporting oppression of weaker by stronger. That might be how things are for a lot of people, but not how they should be. Also, mad internet people have historically changed a lot of things, so I'm justified in showing my disapproval even if it won't change Linus. Changing at least one upcoming Linus in life would be a…

Maybe you should be more concerned about people who are actually threats to you, rather than those who just use language you don't like.

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#563

Post by quotheth »

amazingman wrote: post #560
quotheth wrote: post #555

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you show me an example where a leader of an OSS project had reasonable discussions with other developers (read: n steps below calling them morons who write garbage code), and as a result their project was "stolen" by a powerful tech company?

Your question is constructed in just such a way as to make your point for you. Hopefully you’ll see that it’s far too specific of a demand as to truly support your position. Would you provide me with a less specifically bounded question that you think still captures your position on this?

I asked you to provide an example of the situation you described. I was as specific as you were.

I will try to be more straightforward.

You've stated that Linus has a unique role, and that he has to be this way or he'll lose the kernel/ essentially be worse at his job.

You've provided no examples or evidence (and I asked).

In your opinion, Linus must be this way, it is "just required" by his unique position. We have this totally unknowable position that you, for no apparent reason, assume is best suited to people who insult others publicly. And because this position is unique we can't compare him to others, by nature of the position.

You have essentially placed Linus in a position where you could basically justify anything. "Oh, well, it's a very unique role - you just have to be xyz for this sort of work".

The thing is, Linus's position may be unique, but it has a lot in common with lots of positions we have a good handle on. There are lots of open source leaders out there, lots of people who manage codebases, write code, etc. Maybe not exactly all of those things in exactly the same way, but we have plenty of similar positions.

I do not imagine a community so vehemently defending members of those positions who act like Linus. By your own admission this is a bad model for others in the same exact industry with similar roles - you even say they should be fired for acting the way he does.

So I guess my question is; what unique aspect of Linus's role makes him so different from everyone else with incredibly similar roles? What evidence is there that, against everything we know about positions like the one he fills, acting the way he does is the right way for his role?

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#565

Post by somestag »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #561
cromwellian wrote: post #516

A lot of people trying to defend being a jerk as necessary in these circumstances. I think Google culture proves the opposite: Googley code and peer reviews, blameless postmortems, and a host of other mechanisms that de-escalate and de-personalize things. The Meltdown work at Google probably didn't begin with a rant about morons. It's possible to construct a culture where people can air grievances and criticize other…

I am finding the comments here about how Linus needs to behave properly, like they do at Google, amusing given how often Google and other for profit companies are portrayed as evil empires and FOSS is portrayed as the only moral antidote to the evils of capitalism. Let Linus swear a little and suddenly those roles are entirely reversed? Really?

Isn't that kind of a non sequitur? The idea that "Google is evil" (not that I agree with it) and the idea that "It's possible to construct a culture where people can air grievances and criticize others without inducing flame wars [like at Google]" are arguments that have nothing to do with each other. There is no role reversal, even if we unreservedly accept both premises.

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#566

Post by donatj »

quotheth wrote: post #555
amazingman wrote: post #546

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the context in which Linus exists professionally is perennially misunderstood. IMO he basically has to be this way, or else the kernel would have been effectively stolen by [insert powerful tech company] at various crucial moments throughout its history. I see his particular position in technology as being truly unique, and that it essentially just requires somewhat exaggerated rhetoric and even superficially…

Can you show me an example where a leader of an OSS project had reasonable discussions with other developers (read: n steps below calling them morons who write garbage code), and as a result their project was "stolen" by a powerful tech company?

LibreOffice/StarOffice

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#567

Post by peterwwillis »

cromwellian wrote: post #516

A lot of people trying to defend being a jerk as necessary in these circumstances. I think Google culture proves the opposite: Googley code and peer reviews, blameless postmortems, and a host of other mechanisms that de-escalate and de-personalize things. The Meltdown work at Google probably didn't begin with a rant about morons. It's possible to construct a culture where people can air grievances and criticize other…

Google culture is Google culture, it doesn't prove anything other than what works for Google. Linus culture proves what works for Linus.

I've worked at a lot of places with different cultures. You don't need "Google culture" to not work with assholes.

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#568

Post by beedogs »

grzm wrote: post #544
beedogs wrote: post #543

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the upshot of this debacle for me, too. Intel has lost me (again) as a customer.

How did they (temporarily) win you back?

For a while, they were really the only game in town when AMD was struggling to keep up, performance-wise. Now with Ryzen there's really no reason for me not to switch back. I was an AMD fanboy from the K6-II through a few Athlon revisions.

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#569

Post by DoreenMichele »

somestag wrote: post #565
DoreenMichele wrote: post #561

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am finding the comments here about how Linus needs to behave properly, like they do at Google, amusing given how often Google and other for profit companies are portrayed as evil empires and FOSS is portrayed as the only moral antidote to the evils of capitalism. Let Linus swear a little and suddenly those roles are entirely reversed? Really?

Isn't that kind of a non sequitur? The idea that "Google is evil" (not that I agree with it) and the idea that "It's possible to construct a culture where people can air grievances and criticize others without inducing flame wars [like at Google]" are arguments that have nothing to do with each other. There is no role reversal, even if we unreservedly accept both premises.

No, it is not a non sequitur.

There is no separating out corporate culture from the fact that it is a corporation. FOSS is not a for profit corporation. Expecting it to function like one is not reasonable. Trying to impose corporate culture as the standard for FOSS is not only not reasonable, it is counterproductive.

If you want corporate software, cool. But if you want FOSS to exist at all, there has to be a fundamental acceptance of the fact that it will have a different culture and a different process.

I will add that his cussing spree here is in response to a for profit corporation trying to shit all over his project. But, hey, must be totes okay for them to shit on it since they didn't use any cuss words or raise their voice.

There is your so called corporate etiquette right there.

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#570

Post by joesb »

bigato wrote: post #148
ealexhudson wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being able to call out bullshit doesn't mean having to curse it out. All Linus needs to do is say something like "I don't understand why this is here, and I'm not merging it until I do", rather than "They do literally insane things. They do things that do not make sense". The latter is not a technical argument, and it doesn't provide accuracy or clarity about next steps. "So somebody isn't telling the truth here. Som…

> "I don't understand why this is here, and I'm not merging it until I do" This is not clear enough and could be interpreted as incompetence on the part of the speaker

Which means you are insecure about being viewed as incompetent over furthering the discussion.

If you don't understand it, say you don't understand it.

Unless you are a narcistic person that think you can never fail and anything you don't understand is always garbage.

Post reply on HN