Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Experiments reveal faculty preference for women on STEM tenure track (2014)

pnas.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

81–90 of 116 posts

Re: Experiments reveal faculty preference for women on STEM tenure track (2014)

#81

Post by rdtsc »

vixen99 wrote: post #80
_jal wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like a lot of things he says, it is a cute just-so story, but obscures more than it reveals. Just a few things to try to slot in: differences in participation in "male" professions over short time periods, differences between cultures, differences between STEM and non-STEM higher ed with very similar same economic outcomes.

Please do share the specifics of these 'cute just-so stories' so we're assured you're not just making a suggestive generalization.

https://blogs.harvard.edu/philg/2005/01/21/larry-summers-wom...

(Disclaimer: I just found the quote on Google. I don't know much about the author and his writing. And so I don't somehow endorse it or agree with it more just because I pasted the link).

Re: Experiments reveal faculty preference for women on STEM tenure track (2014)

#82

Post by _jal »

blattimwind wrote: post #77
_jal wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There tend to be self-reinforcing trends in human behavior. Jobs that are highly gendered frequently stay that way, making it harder for the categorically-challenged to partake for purely social reasons. So there are two easily identifiable reasons: One, we should want a society more free from constraints on individual self-realization than less[1]. And for those who lean less cuddly, two, it is economically ineffici…

> There tend to be self-reinforcing trends in human behavior. But we also know how quickly human behaviour changes and adapts to new circumstances. > Jobs that are highly gendered frequently stay that way, making it harder for the categorically-challenged to partake for purely social reasons. I can think of many jobs where this is true (for either sex), but software engineering doesn't seem to fit in this category. I…

> but software engineering doesn't seem to fit in this category

I was casting a significantly wider net, but you're correct wrt software-related fields. Moreover, women used to be far more prevalent in early-"IT"/operations than today, a shift that happened really quickly - a generation or two, depending on where you like to start counting. Shifts like this (they've happened elsewhere, too) is one massive argument against the "women just don't like math" silliness that always pops up.

> As far as classic economic theory goes, the argument seems to be correct, it's just a poor predictor for what humans will do.

Absolutely agree. That's the general thrust of my point overall.

Re: Experiments reveal faculty preference for women on STEM tenure track (2014)

#83

Post by cup-of-tea »

katrinamo wrote: post #78
cup-of-tea wrote: post #67

At an academic institute I used to work at they hired a woman whose job was to improve equality for women. One of the specific tasks was finding out why there were fewer women in the institute. She gave a long presentation showing all kinds of statistics and bizarre graphics comparing job adverts to Playstation controllers (which only appeal to men, apparently). The talk concluded with a figure comparing number of wo…

> Same goes for the wage gap. We know there is no gap. I'm curious how you've come to this conclusion considering the preponderance of studies that say otherwise. This article by the Washington Post examines a few claims regarding the wage gap if you are interested: https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2017/business/women-...

> The median salary for women working full-time is about 80 percent of men’s.

I don't need to read any further because I've read it all before. Women tend do different jobs to men. Easier, safer, less responsibility and less stress. That's not a wage gap, it's just a different choice of career. Which makes the next statement downright offensive:

> That gap, put in other terms, means women are working for free 10 weeks a year.

Re: Experiments reveal faculty preference for women on STEM tenure track (2014)

#84

Post by supreme_sublime »

annabellish wrote: post #59
ravenstine wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that the more you whittle down bigger arguments to "a thousand tiny factors", the less tangible and less useful arguments around gender inequality become. Your argument seems to be that girls are so suggestible that any discouragement easily bounces them back in line. Frankly, there are far more reasons why a man would want to enter STEM than a woman. A man can put of devoting time to a family because…

>Your argument seems to be that girls are so suggestible that any discouragement easily bounces them back in line. They're _children_. Girls or boys, having an authority figure saying "you don't want to do this" will mean most won't do it. It isn't about that girls are any more suggestible than boys, it's that in this area girls get more discouragement than boys do.

Well, since as far as I know there's no real empirical evidence for this. I'll give my own anecdote as a man.

I wasn't encouraged at all, by anyone I knew, to get a career in programming. My parents tried to block certain websites I was frequenting, my friends showed no interest at all in what I was doing. I was lucky to find online communities who did help me and encourage me. But I found those on my own through my own curiosity and desire. I never knew where it would take me and my parents thought I was wasting my time.

It wasn't until I actually got a job that I got some validation by people I actually knew.

Re: Experiments reveal faculty preference for women on STEM tenure track (2014)

#85

Post by remram »

cup-of-tea wrote: post #67

At an academic institute I used to work at they hired a woman whose job was to improve equality for women. One of the specific tasks was finding out why there were fewer women in the institute. She gave a long presentation showing all kinds of statistics and bizarre graphics comparing job adverts to Playstation controllers (which only appeal to men, apparently). The talk concluded with a figure comparing number of wo…

I don't suppose you can name this magical institute that has more women applicants and staff?

Re: Experiments reveal faculty preference for women on STEM tenure track (2014)

#86

Post by remram »

wskinner wrote: post #45
forestdev wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without this being a double-blind experiment, than it is highly questionable. People over-compensate for bias if you tell them you're testing their bias. The fact that the abstract makes no mention of this is highly suspect.

If you had read the paper, you would have found that they tested and rejected the idea that reviewers were overcompensating due to guessing what was being tested. In Experiment 5, they sent single resumes to reviewers and asked them to rate on a 1-10 scale. Female candidates still scored significantly higher.

The fact that they are providing a rating instead of preference doesn't in any way prevent them from overcompensating.

Re: Experiments reveal faculty preference for women on STEM tenure track (2014)

#87

Post by ravenstine »

supreme_sublime wrote: post #84
annabellish wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Your argument seems to be that girls are so suggestible that any discouragement easily bounces them back in line. They're _children_. Girls or boys, having an authority figure saying "you don't want to do this" will mean most won't do it. It isn't about that girls are any more suggestible than boys, it's that in this area girls get more discouragement than boys do.

Well, since as far as I know there's no real empirical evidence for this. I'll give my own anecdote as a man. I wasn't encouraged at all, by anyone I knew, to get a career in programming. My parents tried to block certain websites I was frequenting, my friends showed no interest at all in what I was doing. I was lucky to find online communities who did help me and encourage me. But I found those on my own through my…

Those in my circle of friends who made something of themselves came from difficult backgrounds that didn't encourage them to do what they're doing now. Granted, this is anecdotal, but this is the perspective I'm coming from. I myself have always been averse to encouragement because I don't like doing things to please people or for reasons other than purely my own, but I'm probably a minority when it comes to that.

When it comes to women, I do think there's a widespread cultural problem of discouragement that tells them they are either not smart enough or won't be happy doing X. That is something we should definitely change, but if we instead encourage women into things they're not terribly interested in, we're not going to get the results we delude ourselves into believing are attainable. Removing barriers is preferable to tilting the playing field, which should be insulting to everyone.

Re: Experiments reveal faculty preference for women on STEM tenure track (2014)

#88

Post by annabellish »

ravenstine wrote: post #69
annabellish wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Your argument seems to be that girls are so suggestible that any discouragement easily bounces them back in line. They're _children_. Girls or boys, having an authority figure saying "you don't want to do this" will mean most won't do it. It isn't about that girls are any more suggestible than boys, it's that in this area girls get more discouragement than boys do.

I'm not saying you are wrong, but has there ever been research that suggests this is actually as widespread a problem as suggested? Otherwise, my main point still stands that there are other factors in play during adulthood, besides systematic bias, that would explain the lack of women in STEM and why the desire for gender parity is absurd.

There is some. It's extremely difficult to pin this kind of thing down, unfortunately.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/311595274_The_Roeha... for example covers how gendered schools specifically tackle this, and though most students don't go to gendered schools it's still indicative.

There's other pieces here and there, but nothing conclusively stating "this is why there's a gender gap".

>Otherwise, my main point still stands that there are other factors in play during adulthood, besides systematic bias

There are definitely other factors in play - that's my point - and I don't think we can say it's inherent to the gender. Women being under-represented in STEM is actually a very western thing, most pronounced in the US and UK, and is significantly _less_ pronounced in many other countries. We don't know precisely why, but we do know the answer needs to be complicated and is unlikely to be "women are just naturally predisposed against science, but only in these countries."

Re: Experiments reveal faculty preference for women on STEM tenure track (2014)

#89

Post by annabellish »

supreme_sublime wrote: post #84
annabellish wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Your argument seems to be that girls are so suggestible that any discouragement easily bounces them back in line. They're _children_. Girls or boys, having an authority figure saying "you don't want to do this" will mean most won't do it. It isn't about that girls are any more suggestible than boys, it's that in this area girls get more discouragement than boys do.

Well, since as far as I know there's no real empirical evidence for this. I'll give my own anecdote as a man. I wasn't encouraged at all, by anyone I knew, to get a career in programming. My parents tried to block certain websites I was frequenting, my friends showed no interest at all in what I was doing. I was lucky to find online communities who did help me and encourage me. But I found those on my own through my…

I think one of the problems this discussion has is people see "girls, on average, are discouraged more often than boys" and actually read "all girls have it worse than all boys and no boys had anything but a spiffing time". Now, I'm not saying you're doing this, and I'm definitely not saying your experiences aren't valuable, but I am saying that your experiences are fully compatible with girls recieving more discouragement, and that your experiences would be improved by the collective understanding which would help us rectify the problem.

Re: Experiments reveal faculty preference for women on STEM tenure track (2014)

#90

Post by godelski »

blattimwind wrote: post #65
godelski wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the idea of a (near) 50/50 split is that if there were absolutely no biases or differences then you would see approximately this distribution. But we don't. We do know there are social biases, and thus these are being scrutinized much more. Certainly there can biological biases, but is is absurd to believe that is the only factor involved. My guess is that there is a whole complicated mess of problems and not…

Why is it a problem if men and women aren't doing the exact same thing on average (i.e. professions distributed 50/50 by sex)?

I didn't say that it is a problem. I said you'd expect to see it (ASSUMING NO BIASES). I think you are reading more into my comment that what I wrote.
Post reply on HN