Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.” • Hacker News Board

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#411

Post by crdoconnor » Mon, Jan 22, 2018, 5:17 PM UTC

pdpi wrote: post #343

crdoconnor wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Linus "being an asshole" is what drew attention to this issue. His caustic nature is marketing of a sort. It's clearly putting additional pressure on Intel. How you feel about that depends on how you feel about them furiously trying to sweep everything under the carpet and hoping nobody notices. Personally I think his humiliation of Intel here is putting necessary pressure on them. If he couched his terms and tried t…

See it from this angle: if Linus wasn't known for flipping his lid all the time, him flipping out _this_ time would be even more impactful. Overuse makes it progressively less remarkable. I wasn't even saying that his tone on this particular instance was excessive. I was responding to the general accusation that "PC culture will silence him". There's exactly one sentence I have issues with here ("the whole hardware i…

>See it from this angle: if Linus wasn't known for flipping his lid all the time, him flipping out _this_ time would be even more impactful. Overuse makes it progressively less remarkable.

I don't. This is pretty much part of his brand. He's developed a reputation for flipping his lid and lambasting people who have always deserved it using entertainingly colorful language. That's why these rants still get to the top of HN.

>I was responding to the general accusation that "PC culture will silence him".

I mean, that seems to be what you're trying to do by demanding that he water his language down to something that has minimal emotional impact.

It's not like using the word morons is particularly offensive, either - except to the people who actually deserved it (Intel).

>There's exactly one sentence I have issues with here ("the whole hardware interface is literally mis-designed by morons").

Which is the sentence that got this rant on hacker news, which attracted all the attention which is necessary in order to put pressure on Intel to fix their shit.

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#412

Post by ben_jones » Mon, Jan 22, 2018, 5:18 PM UTC

ChuckMcM wrote: post #394

LyndsySimon wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not only spot, but also invests the energy in calling it out and explaining it. It also requires the social capital necessary for the calls to be taken seriously. I don't worry about Linus being silenced by prevailing culture; I worry that there won't be another Linus after him.

This is a serious concern. If Linus were replaced by someone more pliable/less attentive Linux will have a serious problem.

Or someone influenced by $$$

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#413

Post by rhizome » Mon, Jan 22, 2018, 5:19 PM UTC

ealexhudson wrote: post #175

icelancer wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Being able to call out bullshit doesn't mean having to curse it out. Here we go. >> All Linus needs to do is say something like And all you need to do is be that nice and be as brilliant as Linus is. Oh, it's harder to be that smart than it is to be that nice? Maybe consider that for people as highly gifted as Linus, it actually isn't. What you take for granted as normal behavior isn't always normal to others, esp…

I think you're misreading my comment. The original post was "we need this brashness", my point is, we don't. If a specific individual is unable to communicate without that, that's a totally different matter - being able to accommodate a wide church of people is a crucial diversity matter. Would it have been clearer if I had said "All someone in a project leadership position needs to say ..." ? I'm arguing against tha…

The original post was "we need this brashness", my point is, we don't.

Anything that speaks for all of us is bullshit, so both of you are offtopic. Anybody who pretends to speak for what "we need" is a charlatan. You don't need to address what one person says their preference for universal organization is. Don't feed the trolls.

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#414

Post by kbenson » Mon, Jan 22, 2018, 5:21 PM UTC

nolok wrote: post #74

dingo_bat wrote: post #15

I'm going to be honest, I need an ELI5 here. I know what the meltdown/spectre issues are, and kinda understand what retpoline is.

Big simplification: Proper way to fix an hardware bug like this, is that newer cpu gets protected by default, and they answer they are when queried. So you can ask the CPU "what's your status on bug X" and the cpu answers "i'm good, you don't need to do anything" (newer fixed chips), or "i know about it but was already built, and need microcode update/special behavior to protect myself" (current chips with microcode…

It's not entirely clear to me, but in some of the followup emails it appears that Linus was mistaking the purpose of some patches (or flags at least) due to unobvious naming, but I'm unsure if that significantly alters his criticism. He says it still applies, but is much more muted in tone about it (and whether that's from the original email possibly not being intended to by public or not, I don't know).

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#415

Post by digi_owl » Mon, Jan 22, 2018, 5:23 PM UTC

Random_Person wrote: post #295

mrmondo wrote: post #8

I think we should count ourselves lucky we have someone so good at spotting bullsh*t like this - and isn’t afraid to call it out as they sees it. Intel & friends have absolutely disgusted me lately, it could be all to easy to settle for less based on their standards, but let’s not let them set the standard - they’ve shown they can’t be trusted with quality and when they fail - they can’t be trusted to be transparent…

I fear for the future of post-Linus linux.

You are far from alone, especially given the behaviors and attitudes of the most likely successor...

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#416

Post by prewett » Mon, Jan 22, 2018, 5:26 PM UTC

mseebach wrote: post #159

mrmondo wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could not agree more, unfortunately I’ve seen the latter more often than the former. When you find good management it is truly inspiring however.

There's some bias to this, though. Good management is much more "everything and everybody just seemingly by if self seems to be more or less in the right place" and less "Steve Jobs screaming at everybody about rounded corners and then everybody realising five years later that this is actually a much bigger deal than everbody except Jobs saw at the time" -- in other words, pretty invisible.

I'm curious, how were the round corners important? I like them, and I buy his argument that nothing in the real world has sharp corners, but Android has had sharp corners forever. (I'm asking because I'd like to know the answer, not because I'm asserting the opposite.)

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#417

Post by digi_owl » Mon, Jan 22, 2018, 5:27 PM UTC

eru wrote: post #163

icelancer wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We all get X +/- N points to assign to various traits and skills. Linus maxed the intelligence and technical ability sliders and somewhat ignored the charisma and tact ones. I agree with you, and though I haven't evaluated your first statement, the fact that I have to think about whether or not you are right at all is good enough. We don't have to like Linus' communication... methods. I often don't. But no one is per…

> We all get X +/- N points to assign to various traits and skills. Linus maxed the intelligence and technical ability sliders and somewhat ignored the charisma and tact ones. That's an unhelpful model. It implies that hitting the gym or studying or putting on make-up will make harm you in equal measures as it helps you.

And some of the biggest assholes i have met have come in the gym and make-up form...

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#418

Post by idbehold » Mon, Jan 22, 2018, 5:27 PM UTC

pmlnr wrote: post #235

Tijdreiziger wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why don't they just work on a proper fix instead? I'm sure Linus would be glad to integrate a proper solution, but it's clear that his opinion is that Intel is instead bringing 'garbage' to the table.

Because there is no proper fix. The only fix comes with massive slowdown.

You just contradicted yourself.

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#419

Post by peapicker » Mon, Jan 22, 2018, 5:27 PM UTC

dboreham wrote: post #384

peapicker wrote: post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ironically, Sun might have not had to sell themselves to Oracle, and the world's server's might be running on SPARC chips that are immune to these issues. Linux is what allowed Intel to get its biggest foothold into the UNIX server market.

This is true, but if there hadn't been Linux there would have been something else to fill this niche (runs on commodity PC hardware, zero license cost). Sparc/Solaris wouldn't have continued to rule. Intel would have found some other workable solution.

True. And we'd have the same issues with this processor family now...

Don't get me wrong, I love Linux and loved FreeBSD back when it was more easy to choose... But I do think the 'free UNIX' movement has had unintended consequences like the demise of Sun, and perhaps now also this exposing of a failure in what was a desktop class chip architecture that was elevated to server usage.

Everything has a cost is all I'm saying.

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#420

Post by microtherion » Mon, Jan 22, 2018, 5:31 PM UTC

nolok wrote: post #74

dingo_bat wrote: post #15

I'm going to be honest, I need an ELI5 here. I know what the meltdown/spectre issues are, and kinda understand what retpoline is.

Big simplification: Proper way to fix an hardware bug like this, is that newer cpu gets protected by default, and they answer they are when queried. So you can ask the CPU "what's your status on bug X" and the cpu answers "i'm good, you don't need to do anything" (newer fixed chips), or "i know about it but was already built, and need microcode update/special behavior to protect myself" (current chips with microcode…

Thanks for your informative explanation. However…

> "boot an older os and it's vulnerable since it doesn't know to call this"

Presumably the hardware that fixes this is not even available on the market yet. How likely is it that somebody will go out of their way to install an obsolete OS version on their brand new hardware?