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Experiments reveal faculty preference for women on STEM tenure track (2014)

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Re: Experiments reveal faculty preference for women on STEM tenure track (2014)

#61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And then there is reality: https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2017/07/homicides... , etc.

The parent said that the chances of that happening are vanishingly small. Your source (and your source's source: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/66/wr/mm6628a1.htm ) support that statement: > The CDC analyzed the murders of women in 18 states from 2003 to 2014, finding a total of 10,018 deaths. > The overall age-adjusted homicide rate was 2.0 per 100,000 women. 18 states, tens of millions of people, and an inconceiv…

Yes most people die of natural causes.

Re: Experiments reveal faculty preference for women on STEM tenure track (2014)

#62
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The danger there is in trying to explain a complicated social phenomenon with "it's free, so why wouldn't they do it?" There's very little suggestion that the reason there aren't more women in tech is because they can't afford it. In reality, it's a thousand tiny factors from a thousand people, none/few of them actively trying to do harm. As an offhand, personal example, my sister isn't in tech because she was told C…

> "wouldn't be her thing" If that is the case, are you asserting that all of these displaced women are choosing fields of studies that they're not a good fit for?

No, not at all. To go back to my individual, circumstantial example, my sister is now a very good teacher.

Things don't have to be evil to average out unfortunate.

Re: Experiments reveal faculty preference for women on STEM tenure track (2014)

#63
post #51

> Research on actual hiring shows female Ph.D.s are disproportionately less likely to apply for tenure-track positions, but if they do apply, they are more likely to be hired, sometimes by a 2:1 ratio. I think the society and culture needs to work a bit harder to promote the idea of a girl as a professor, scientist, hacker, math wiz etc. Not just lip service but change the stories, the cartoons, movies, games etc. Fo…

>I think the society and culture needs to work a bit harder to promote the idea of a girl as a professor, scientist, hacker, math wiz etc

I keep being reminded of Phillip greenspun's quip:

"A lot more men than women choose to do seemingly irrational things such as become petty criminals, fly homebuilt helicopters, play video games, and keep tropical fish as pets (98 percent of the attendees at the American Cichlid Association convention that I last attended were male). Should we be surprised that it is mostly men who spend 10 years banging their heads against an equation-filled blackboard in hopes of landing a $35,000/year post-doc job?"

Re: Experiments reveal faculty preference for women on STEM tenure track (2014)

#64
Couple of things, tangentially contradictory.

1. We need more women in STEM because there is both an industry shortage and because it provides a potential avenue to a good career.

2. We should look for equal opportunity rather than equal outcome.

3. We see greater STEM participation in China, Russia, India, etc., despite barriers, so it's apparent there are other cultural factors influencing decisions and those need addressing in order to make STEM more appealing to women in the first place.

Re: Experiments reveal faculty preference for women on STEM tenure track (2014)

#65
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Denmark for example, which by all accounts is a first world country, the majority of educated people are actually women[2], and there is absolutely nothing that prevents anyone from any social class or gender to take an education (it's free, heck even payed for), yet we still see women leaning more towards the humanities, social sciences and professions such as lawyer[0], than men. Men predominantly lean towards S…

I think the idea of a (near) 50/50 split is that if there were absolutely no biases or differences then you would see approximately this distribution. But we don't. We do know there are social biases, and thus these are being scrutinized much more. Certainly there can biological biases, but is is absurd to believe that is the only factor involved. My guess is that there is a whole complicated mess of problems and not…

Why is it a problem if men and women aren't doing the exact same thing on average (i.e. professions distributed 50/50 by sex)?

Re: Experiments reveal faculty preference for women on STEM tenure track (2014)

#66
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Denmark for example, which by all accounts is a first world country, the majority of educated people are actually women[2], and there is absolutely nothing that prevents anyone from any social class or gender to take an education (it's free, heck even payed for), yet we still see women leaning more towards the humanities, social sciences and professions such as lawyer[0], than men. Men predominantly lean towards S…

I think the idea of a (near) 50/50 split is that if there were absolutely no biases or differences then you would see approximately this distribution. But we don't. We do know there are social biases, and thus these are being scrutinized much more. Certainly there can biological biases, but is is absurd to believe that is the only factor involved. My guess is that there is a whole complicated mess of problems and not…

Why does it matter if the differences are biological, cultural, or both? If women have the option to go into STEM without risking social exclusion(which is arguably the case in most developed countries) yet they choose to do something else, shouldn't that be their choice? Wouldn't these unequal trends naturally result in an environment with equal opportunities among people with different overall desires?

Re: Experiments reveal faculty preference for women on STEM tenure track (2014)

#67
At an academic institute I used to work at they hired a woman whose job was to improve equality for women. One of the specific tasks was finding out why there were fewer women in the institute. She gave a long presentation showing all kinds of statistics and bizarre graphics comparing job adverts to Playstation controllers (which only appeal to men, apparently). The talk concluded with a figure comparing number of women to number of men at each stage in the hiring process. From application, to interview, to hire. The numbers were equal all the way through, with a slight bias towards women, in fact.

Every woman who was at the institute also took advantage of options that were not available to me as a man. There are special grants for women. They can apply for the ones available for me as well.

So really the question for me is why there is such a divide between the science and what people believe. It's simple confirmation bias. If you tell people that they will be at a disadvantage due to a certain characteristic then they will blame every misfortune in their life on that characteristic.

Same goes for the wage gap. We know there is no gap. It's illegal and ridiculous to suggest it exists. But you will always be able to find at least one man who gets paid more than you. As a man I don't think it's becaues of his blue eyes. But women think it's because he's a man, because that's what they already believe.

Re: Experiments reveal faculty preference for women on STEM tenure track (2014)

#68
post #64

Couple of things, tangentially contradictory. 1. We need more women in STEM because there is both an industry shortage and because it provides a potential avenue to a good career. 2. We should look for equal opportunity rather than equal outcome. 3. We see greater STEM participation in China, Russia, India, etc., despite barriers, so it's apparent there are other cultural factors influencing decisions and those need…

there is both an industry shortage

Including former cow-orkers I probably know a couple of hundred PhDs. Of those, a mere handful work in academia doing research. Even fewer are tenure-track. Of the remainder, how many do you think slogged through the programme in say physics or biology with the intent of becoming a software developer after?

I absolutely believe in equal opportunities but a false promise of a good job due to a shortage is not a fair way to promote it.

Re: Experiments reveal faculty preference for women on STEM tenure track (2014)

#69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that the more you whittle down bigger arguments to "a thousand tiny factors", the less tangible and less useful arguments around gender inequality become. Your argument seems to be that girls are so suggestible that any discouragement easily bounces them back in line. Frankly, there are far more reasons why a man would want to enter STEM than a woman. A man can put of devoting time to a family because…

>Your argument seems to be that girls are so suggestible that any discouragement easily bounces them back in line. They're _children_. Girls or boys, having an authority figure saying "you don't want to do this" will mean most won't do it. It isn't about that girls are any more suggestible than boys, it's that in this area girls get more discouragement than boys do.

I'm not saying you are wrong, but has there ever been research that suggests this is actually as widespread a problem as suggested? Otherwise, my main point still stands that there are other factors in play during adulthood, besides systematic bias, that would explain the lack of women in STEM and why the desire for gender parity is absurd.

Re: Experiments reveal faculty preference for women on STEM tenure track (2014)

#70

I am not too sure I would agree with this statement from the abstract: "These results suggest it is a propitious time for women launching careers in academic science.” It might be less worse to be a woman, but in the same way it is better to lose a leg below the knee than above the knee.

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