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Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

lkml.iu.edu

391–400 of 702 posts

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#391

I want to create a new LKML account just to reply simply with > s/cool-aid/kool-aid/ Sometimes I just want to see the world burn.

It was actually flavor-aid :)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drinking_the_Kool-Aid#Backgrou...

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Intel transformed from a technology company to a management company. That somewhat explains their highly unreasonable behavior.

The part of the lifecycle where the clueless have taken over: https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-...

I highly recommend all of ribbonfarm and especially:

- ancient rivers of money

- The Return of the Barbarian

- Can Hydras eat unknown unknowns for lunch

There is also a more recent one where he writes about young people and their attitudes about money and property ownership and "life scripts" that was here on HN and metafilter and other places but I don't know the name of it ... was quite good.

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? The internet is full of ranting commenters. They all have content of a sort. His don't deserve any more attention just because he's the subject of a hero-worship cult. Its actually possible to find thoughtful commentary on most any subject, without suffering jerks.

Sometimes you just get sick of people pushing off garbage like it's a 3 star Michelin meal. As the primary kernel developer, the amount of crap he has to deal with gives him broad levity IMO. I've worked with engineers across many fields over my ~35 years of working. When they're ripping you a new one, you pretty much always deserve it. Putting shit on a plate is being a jerk, because you're not only wasting your tim…

So we're just to take his word for it? Other than profanity what I read had no specifics, just jerky complaining. By a guy who is arguably not an expert at the issue (of Intel Processor microcode internal vulnerabilities).

A thoughtful comment would have illuminated the issue, explained why the fixes were too broad or not specific enough, and how they could be improved.

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not only spot, but also invests the energy in calling it out and explaining it. Many business failures i've witnessed happened ultimately because nobody had the energy to cut down the bullshit forest that constantly regrows around a company.

> Not only spot, but also invests the energy in calling it out and explaining it. It also requires the social capital necessary for the calls to be taken seriously. I don't worry about Linus being silenced by prevailing culture; I worry that there won't be another Linus after him.

This is a serious concern. If Linus were replaced by someone more pliable/less attentive Linux will have a serious problem.

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#395
post #357
post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ... I've also seen Americans in IT who can be very blunt. I attribute it ... to the [autism] spectrum. Please stop. It's unhealthy to pretend that undesired behaviors in IT are generally the result of autism. It perpetuates an unhealthy culture by essentially saying that guys (because it's only guys who are excused this way) in IT are not responsible for their behavior. It's also insulting to people with autism to…

> It's unhealthy to pretend that undesired behaviors in IT are generally the result of autism. Not what I did; no need to start bifurcating. What I asserted (or, what I meant) is that people on the spectrum are more common in IT. I never said that everyone in IT is autistic. I never argued Torvalds has autism. > It perpetuates an unhealthy culture by essentially saying that guys (because it's only guys who are excuse…

> Not what I did; no need to start bifurcating.

I'm not sure what you mean by "bifurcating" in this context but this is exactly what you did. You literally said that you see blunt communication in IT and attribute it to autism spectrum disorders.

> What I asserted (or, what I meant) is that people on the spectrum are more common in IT. I never said that everyone in IT is autistic. I never argued Torvalds has autism.

I did not claim that you said everyone in IT is autistic. I'm saying that your assumption that blunt/direct/whatever behavior implies autism is both incorrect and unhealthy. People with autism spectrum disorders may be over-represented in IT (people claim this; I have no idea if it's actually true), but even if so, it's still a small percentage of total people in IT. Attributing entire classes of common behavior to autism is incorrect.

You did not directly claim that Torvalds has autism but you did assert that you assume autism in the face of Torvalds-style behavior.

> Hi, I have autism, as I acknowledged in another post throughout this thread. There's a rule on HN that you shouldn't assume the worst explanation from a post. Well, you just did, cause why would I willingly try to insult everyone with autism if I have it myself? How that make any sense whatsoever?

I didn't say you're trying to insult people with autism. I said you're doing it. It's undoubtedly unintentional, but it's absolutely insulting to take an undesired behavior and associate it with an entire group.

If I say that when I see fat people, I assume they're Americans, that's insulting to Americans. The fact that I happen to be American doesn't change that.

> People with autism need to function in a non-autistic society. The current therapy I am getting is focussed on that. Using autism as an excuse isn't acceptable; its considered counter-productive.

Assholes also need to function in society. Pretending that they're autistic doesn't help anyone. It certainly doesn't help people with autism.

I'm not in any way saying that people with autism spectrum disorders don't need to function in society or that autism should be an "excuse" for anything. I'm actually saying very much the opposite. Rude behavior should not be attributed to autism, partly because that's not a valid excuse but also because most rude behavior does not come from people with autism spectrum disorders.

> I don't find him very strong, socially. Read his body language while he's giving a talk. He's shy, at the very least. Just because someone can express themselves easily via e-mail doesn't mean they're not socially awkward.

I probably overstated when I said he's "certainly not socially awkward". He is a little awkward in talks. However, lots of people (most, probably) are uncomfortable with public speaking in front of large crowds, and I don't think his level of awkwardness seems unusual. And of course shyness is not synonymous with autism. I still don't see any evidence that Torvalds has any form of autistic disorder.

> Also, what I quoted is not mutually exclusive. More importantly, there is no such thing as a binary autism flag; it is a spectrum.

No one said there's a binary "autism" flag.

> What Torvalds suffers from is that he expresses his anger with unnecessary cursewords in order to give his arguments strength (a fallacy).

Torvalds is not generally criticized for "curse words". He's generally criticized for bluntly insulting people and their work. When he says someone is "fucking insane", the problem isn't the fact that he used a curse word. It's that he's insulting someone. The cursing is perhaps another layer on top, but if he dropped the word "fuck" into every email but did it politely, no one would call him an asshole for it.

But I also don't think Torvalds is really "suffering" as a result of his communication style. The only negative I see is that people criticize him for it periodically. But overall it seems to be working and the negative repercussions are minimal to nonexistent. He gets attention on the issues he cares about and HN says he's mean. I doubt he loses sleep over the criticism.

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#396
post #357
post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ... I've also seen Americans in IT who can be very blunt. I attribute it ... to the [autism] spectrum. Please stop. It's unhealthy to pretend that undesired behaviors in IT are generally the result of autism. It perpetuates an unhealthy culture by essentially saying that guys (because it's only guys who are excused this way) in IT are not responsible for their behavior. It's also insulting to people with autism to…

> It's unhealthy to pretend that undesired behaviors in IT are generally the result of autism. Not what I did; no need to start bifurcating. What I asserted (or, what I meant) is that people on the spectrum are more common in IT. I never said that everyone in IT is autistic. I never argued Torvalds has autism. > It perpetuates an unhealthy culture by essentially saying that guys (because it's only guys who are excuse…

Both my sons and their father likely all qualify for an ASD label, though none of them has been officially diagnosed. My sons are vastly more socially savvy than their father, largely due to having been raised better.

I know a lot about the topic of autism and related issues. I get tired of seeing social difficulties chalked up to a label of some disability or other. It takes a couple of decades to properly raise a human and prepare them for their role in society. A large part of social skills are learned behavior. This is why we have the term socialization.

Furthermore, different approaches are normal in different contexts. Someone who is not autistic and has no difficulty understanding and navigating social things can have trouble when placed in a new situation, including but not limited to a different culture.

Accusations of being autistic as an explanation for abrasive behavior are almost never sympathetic. They are almost never an attempt to understand why someone is coming across poorly and find a way to better interact with them. They boil down to a suggestion of incompetence and a dismissal of the person's position, as well as any legitimate anger or frustration they may be feeling.

There are cultures, including the American military, where being very blunt is the norm. As others have noted here, when people accuse someone of being rude, it very often means they don't like being disagreed with and are just looking for an excuse to be offended and level accusations. It isn't actually possible to find a way around that. People who are going to hurl accusations and focus on your style of communication as a way to try to avoid dealing with the substance are not acting in good faith. There is no means to be both polite and effective with such people. They will not like being disagreed with and will hate you for that piece of it no matter how you present it.

It seems you are trying to be an advocate for yourself and others with the same diagnosis. This is not the way to go about it. It comes across as simply insulting Linus Torvalds as an excuse to not take his position seriously while at the same time slandering the entire IT profession with a tired and untrue stereotype that everyone in IT has terrible social skills and they are all just aspie.

You keep saying that you have an ASD diagnosis, you don't see the points other people are making and then concluding they must be in the wrong. Let me respectfully suggest that you are missing some contextual cues. Meaning of words does not occur in a vacuum. Context matters.

There are ways to be a representative of your demographic and an advocate for others like you. This is about the worst possible way to try to do that.

Best.

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#397

FWIW, at least a small part of that email is due to a confusion between Intel acronyms: http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1801.2/04637.html

Agreed, but I don't think it changes the bulk of what he's talking about.

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#398
Haha, two mails down, David Woodhouse doesn't disappoint and sends a message that'm copying here:

http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1801.2/05282.html

    I think we've covered the technical part of this now, not that you like
    it â not that any of us *like* it. But since the peanut gallery is
    paying lots of attention it's probably worth explaining it a little
    more for their benefit.
    
    This is all about Spectre variant 2, where the CPU can be tricked into
    mispredicting the target of an indirect branch. And I'm specifically
    looking at what we can do on *current* hardware, where we're limited to
    the hacks they can manage to add in the microcode.
    
    The new microcode from Intel and AMD adds three new features.
    
    One new feature (IBPB) is a complete barrier for branch prediction.
    After frobbing this, no branch targets learned earlier are going to be
    used. It's kind of expensive (order of magnitude ~4000 cycles).
    
    The second (STIBP) protects a hyperthread sibling from following branch
    predictions which were learned on another sibling. You *might* want
    this when running unrelated processes in userspace, for example. Or
    different VM guests running on HT siblings.
    
    The third feature (IBRS) is more complicated. It's designed to be
    set when you enter a more privileged execution mode (i.e. the kernel).
    It prevents branch targets learned in a less-privileged execution mode,
    BEFORE IT WAS MOST RECENTLY SET, from taking effect. But it's not just
    a 'set-and-forget' feature, it also has barrier-like semantics and
    needs to be set on *each* entry into the kernel (from userspace or a VM
    guest). It's *also* expensive. And a vile hack, but for a while it was
    the only option we had.
    
    Even with IBRS, the CPU cannot tell the difference between different
    userspace processes, and between different VM guests. So in addition to
    IBRS to protect the kernel, we need the full IBPB barrier on context
    switch and vmexit. And maybe STIBP while they're running.
    
    Then along came Paul with the cunning plan of "oh, indirect branches
    can be exploited? Screw it, let's not have any of *those* then", which
    is retpoline. And it's a *lot* faster than frobbing IBRS on every entry
    into the kernel. It's a massive performance win.
    
    So now we *mostly* don't need IBRS. We build with retpoline, use IBPB
    on context switches/vmexit (which is in the first part of this patch
    series before IBRS is added), and we're safe. We even refactored the
    patch series to put retpoline first.
    
    But wait, why did I say "mostly"? Well, not everyone has a retpoline
    compiler yet... but OK, screw them; they need to update.
    
    Then there's Skylake, and that generation of CPU cores. For complicated
    reasons they actually end up being vulnerable not just on indirect
    branches, but also on a 'ret' in some circumstances (such as 16+ CALLs
    in a deep chain).
    
    The IBRS solution, ugly though it is, did address that. Retpoline
    doesn't. There are patches being floated to detect and prevent deep
    stacks, and deal with some of the other special cases that bite on SKL,
    but those are icky too. And in fact IBRS performance isn't anywhere
    near as bad on this generation of CPUs as it is on earlier CPUs
    *anyway*, which makes it not quite so insane to *contemplate* using it
    as Intel proposed.
    
    That's why my initial idea, as implemented in this RFC patchset, was to
    stick with IBRS on Skylake, and use retpoline everywhere else. I'll
    give you "garbage patches", but they weren't being "just mindlessly
    sent around". If we're going to drop IBRS support and accept the
    caveats, then let's do it as a conscious decision having seen what it
    would look like, not just drop it quietly because poor Davey is too
    scared that Linus might shout at him again. :)
    
    I have seen *hand-wavy* analyses of the Skylake thing that mean I'm not
    actually lying awake at night fretting about it, but nothing concrete
    that really says it's OK.
    
    If you view retpoline as a performance optimisation, which is how it
    first arrived, then it's rather unconventional to say "well, it only
    opens a *little* bit of a security hole but it does go nice and fast so
    let's do it".
    
    But fine, I'm content with ditching the use of IBRS to protect the
    kernel, and I'm not even surprised. There's a *reason* we put it last
    in the series, as both the most contentious and most dispensable part.
    I'd be *happier* with a coherent analysis showing Skylake is still OK,
    but hey-ho, screw Skylake.
    
    The early part of the series adds the new feature bits and detects when
    it can turn KPTI off on non-Meltdown-vulnerable Intel CPUs, and also
    supports the IBPB barrier that we need to make retpoline complete. That
    much I think we definitely *do* want. There have been a bunch of us
    working on this behind the scenes; one of us will probably post that
    bit in the next day or so.
    
    I think we also want to expose IBRS to VM guests, even if we don't use
    it ourselves. Because Windows guests (and RHEL guests; yay!) do use it.
    
    If we can be done with the shouty part, I'd actually quite like to have
    a sensible discussion about when, if ever, we do IBPB on context switch
    (ptraceability and dumpable have both been suggested) and when, if
    ever, we set STIPB in userspace.

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorta off-topic, but what did Linus actually do back at Transmeta? Did he contribute to their JIT compiler for x86?

At least the journal reports I read at that time implied that much. He was one of the technical leads on this as far as I recall. So he would have had to get a very good knowledge of the Transmeta CPU and of the x86 instruction set for that task. I think it shows here.

IIRC, he originally wrote Linux to be 386 specific and essientially to get hands on experience with all of the special features.

He was already one of the best minds of x86 who hadn't seen real internals of another chip, hence why Transmeta hired him in the first place.

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ironically, Sun might have not had to sell themselves to Oracle, and the world's server's might be running on SPARC chips that are immune to these issues. Linux is what allowed Intel to get its biggest foothold into the UNIX server market.

This is true, but if there hadn't been Linux there would have been something else to fill this niche (runs on commodity PC hardware, zero license cost). Sparc/Solaris wouldn't have continued to rule. Intel would have found some other workable solution.

Indeed. For one there was the 386BSD lawsuit, for another there was HURD. Torvalds himself has stated that if HURD had been usable at the time, he would not have bothered working on Linux.

Honestly, back when Linux started getting momentum, RMS' GNU/Linux argument had merit. Most of the stuff people where running on top of Linux, never mind using to develop Linux, came from the GNU project.

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