The radical idea of a world without jobs • Hacker News Board

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#241

Post by PhasmaFelis » Sat, Jan 20, 2018, 2:08 AM UTC

jnordwick wrote: post #186

Some choice quotes that will show you this great society these people are thinking of. Notice it is mostly a rehashing of socialism, communism, and anarchism, and most post-workists are radical leftist hoping to to make another push into society: > In 1884, the socialist William Morris proposed that in “beautiful” factories of the future, surrounded by gardens for relaxation, employees should work only “four hours a…

> Some choice quotes that will show you this great society these people are thinking of.

Are those quotes supposed to fill me with disgust or something? Most of them sound quite nice.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#242

Post by NiklasMort » Sat, Jan 20, 2018, 7:15 AM UTC

chillwaves wrote: post #232

NiklasMort wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes I agree, there are people with bad luck but I was not talking about those, I meant more in general. I am not saying one should not help, the topic was about work anyway, my point was simply that if people step back with their wants they'd have to work less. I just hear too often someone lament about how he/she has no money but then they have all kinds of luxury items... car, especially if someone lives in a big c…

I can either drive a car and commute to work for 30-40 minutes each way or I can take public transportation and commute for 1.5-2 hours each way. Additionally, in places without robust transportation, you literally cannot work without a car. You are correct that I do not need a car, but you are wrong to assume it is trivial to lose 2+ hours of free time each day as just another luxury. Frankly, your position on needs…

But the struggle of the working poor is not because of the amount of work (topic), but because of a unfair economic system. p.s. if you read above you'd knew I been in such situations too, I kind of grew up with that

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#243

Post by NiklasMort » Sat, Jan 20, 2018, 7:23 AM UTC

chillwaves wrote: post #231

NiklasMort wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you have children you can't complain if you have to work more. It is a decision, kids cost money, everybody knows that. Same goes for location to live in, what you eat, if you want a car...my point is : you don't NEED much. Most people could live comfortable with less work, the problem is people WANT too much and that is exacerbated by this throw-away society. What most don't get is: the world owes you nothing, yo…

The ability to have and provide for children could be considered a fundamental human right, or THE fundamental right.

How can one say something such irresponsible? A lot of the problems in the world and peoples personal life are caused by reproduction. It is not a right but a choice and this choice most seem unable to make with a clear rational mind, if anything people need oversight on that topic. But apparently ridiculous "ethical" and religious positions are more important than the coming global(!) humanitarian crisis, I'd like to ask people like you again about what you think once people start eating each other and rot away by the billions.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#244

Post by jnordwick » Sat, Jan 20, 2018, 8:39 AM UTC

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #241

jnordwick wrote: post #186

Some choice quotes that will show you this great society these people are thinking of. Notice it is mostly a rehashing of socialism, communism, and anarchism, and most post-workists are radical leftist hoping to to make another push into society: > In 1884, the socialist William Morris proposed that in “beautiful” factories of the future, surrounded by gardens for relaxation, employees should work only “four hours a…

> Some choice quotes that will show you this great society these people are thinking of. Are those quotes supposed to fill me with disgust or something? Most of them sound quite nice.

Yes. Drum solos, affairs, and magic should make you question your sanity.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#245

Post by coolaliasbro » Sat, Jan 20, 2018, 3:38 PM UTC

nickthemagicman wrote: post #53

swalsh wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These conversations I feel always seem shallow to me. Automation is definitely helping to free us from a lot of work.. but the world we live in today feels like a preview of what an automated world feels like. In reality, our material lifestyle is still supported by a very large number of people working away in countries most Americans can't find on a map for extremely low wages. If we're going to talk about "reorgan…

Do you know that 8 people in the world have as much wealth as 3.6 BILLION people. That inequality is STAGGERING. Where do you think the problem lies?

> Do you know that 8 people in the world have as much wealth as 3.6 BILLION people. That inequality is STAGGERING.

This. This is the root of the issue in its entirety. As a civilized species (civilized in the sense that we "have" civilization) we should ban as a practice and ostracize those that propone the privatization of capital gains and the socialization of capital losses. Period. The figure posted by parent speaks volumes of the flaws of the currently dominant economic paradigm.

I hate to get too tangential and throw shade in a generically, but I've always felt like those of us that aspire to be millionaires, etc., are doing it wrong.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#246

Post by coolaliasbro » Sat, Jan 20, 2018, 4:00 PM UTC

throwanem wrote: post #90

nickthemagicman wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you know that 8 people in the world have as much wealth as 3.6 BILLION people. That inequality is STAGGERING. Where do you think the problem lies?

Well, using figures from http://time.com/money/4746795/richest-people-in-the-world/ , if we take the top eight, sum their fortunes (conveniently expressed in billions), and divide by 3.6, we find that a maximally equitable redistribution would allocate, to each of the lucky recipients, the princely sum of $165.38 US. So, I'm going to guess the problem may lie somewhere other than with eight really rich people. But we…

To be clear, the billions controlled by these 8 individuals are not in the majority held in cash. The notion of redistributing this wealth is about socializing the benefits and gains from capital investments. As such, a restructuring of this wealth would not look like handing circa $165 to every person on the planet.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#247

Post by coolaliasbro » Sat, Jan 20, 2018, 4:06 PM UTC

patmorgan23 wrote: post #143

nickthemagicman wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're not extrapolating. Thats just the top 8 people...Take the sum of the rest of the the global 1% or even 10% and do your math... OH nm, the math has already been done. 280 trillion in global wealth / 6 billion people = 46k per person And the top 10% has 86% percent of it, and the inequality is just growing exponentially. I'm not advocating that wealth should be equally distributed OR that capitalism is all bad..…

Unregulated capitalism is not what's causing the massive inequality we see today. It's the financial and monetary policies. I'm not saying we shouldn't have regulations but the ones we have are centralizing wealth into the biggest corporations. If you look this modern massive growth of inequality doesn't really start until the 1970's after we whet off the gold standard and theirs an uptick in inequality every time th…

> Unregulated capitalism is not what's causing the massive inequality we see today. It's the financial and monetary policies.

Well, considering that financial and monetary policies are aimed at deregulation, and that financialization of the economy in developed countries is a thing, it would appear that unregulated capitalism is precisely what is causing massive inequality.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#248

Post by coolaliasbro » Sat, Jan 20, 2018, 4:19 PM UTC

grasshopperpurp wrote: post #145

ciocan42 wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this view of inequality is misleading. It put emphasis that the top richest should be not rich, or they are not good people. It's a defeating viewpoint that blames other for not having success. When in fact top 10% richest helped much more people along the way than all average combined. And the consequence is being rich. Instead of complaining about inequality (aka making the rich poorer), better to think abo…

But, when those extremely rich are siphoning money away from others (via paying for laws that favor them, exploiting workers, etc.), it absolutely makes sense to say, 'Hey, you don't need all that. You need to share more than you are.'

I completely agree with the drift of your comment, but would nitpick the notion of "sharing" in this context: since, as has been explained above, the system is effectively gamed to legitimize the capturing of value by those that already have most of it from those that produce it and do not, the current situation is tantamount to legalized theft by one class from another. I don't follow that a thief can share something he stole with the person from which he stole it.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#249

Post by nickthemagicman » Sat, Jan 20, 2018, 4:43 PM UTC

oreo81 wrote: post #228

nickthemagicman wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have examples of these 'financial and monetary policies' you're referring to? What I see is that Wal-Mart makes a ton of money and their employees have to be on food stamps and still work 80 hour weeks while the owners reap all of the profit. To me this is simply unregulated capitalism which nowdays has become thinly masked slavery.

Walmart employees don't work 80 hours a week...that's absurd, most can barely handle a 4 hour shift. All in all people get what they're worth, want to earn more money? Bring more valuable talents to the table.

False.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#250

Post by JulianMorrison » Sat, Jan 20, 2018, 8:26 PM UTC

imron wrote: post #203

JulianMorrison wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, everyone likes work. We call it "hobbies" when its not formally productive and "vocations" when it is. Capitalism, as a system, is awful at allocating this work that people love to the people who love it. They either can't at all, or they are forced to fit it around wasted time, or they have to gamble on trying to build it up from nothing, and often losing their stake and their beloved work.

> Capitalism, as a system, is awful at allocating this work that people love to the people who love it. It's significantly better at it than the alternatives. Even UBI. Sure UBI sounds great in principle, you'll be given enough to live on and you can spend your time doing whatever takes your fancy, but in large-scale practice I don't see it working. Making the majority of the population dependent on the government fo…

One, they're not dependent on the government. Only on a society organized to redistribute wealth so as to prevent scarcity, in the broadest sense of the term. Could be anarchic or contributory in a different social climate.

Two, the idea is not that people will goof off all day. Some yeah. Most, no. Most people will find work they like doing and do it. What does go away, however, is the fear of failure, unemployment and poverty. So they will have much better options to search for their most effective niche, rather than leaping in panic upon the first offer.