Union Is Formed at Los Angeles Times and Publisher Put on Leave • Hacker News Board

Re: Union Is Formed at Los Angeles Times and Publisher Put on Leave

#51

Post by maehwasu » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 10:34 PM UTC

bbddg wrote: post #43

Dirlewanger wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think part of it is because the gap between the skill floor and ceiling is absolutely gargantuan. Unions work best when the skill gap is narrow, and ascension to different levels easily measurable. The more I think about it, software engineering is almost completely antithetical to the idea of unions. Traditional engineers have so much structure around their fields because the laws of physics govern a large part of…

You think the laws of physics don't apply to software engineering?

They're not the fundamental constraint in work output differences. IQ/ability gaps matter way more than they do in programming than they do in construction work.

Re: Union Is Formed at Los Angeles Times and Publisher Put on Leave

#52

Post by debt » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 10:34 PM UTC

ng12 wrote: post #5

chollida1 wrote: post #2

I thought this was interesting because if knowledge workers like journalists can do so, why not programmers, or what ever term you'd prefer to be called?

Why do we need a union in a seller's market? If I'm unhappy with my job I can quit and get a new one in a week. It's not about being a knowledge worker. Screenwriters are unionized because there are many more people who want to write than there are gigs, therefore there's a high potential for abuse.

Unions do other things like maybe even require certain working conditions; standing desk or that they provide computers to you of sufficient power, licenses they'd have to buy etc, maybe they absolutely will not implement certain complex things like a new type of orbital interceptor idk.

Unions create a legal framework around repetitive work.

Re: Union Is Formed at Los Angeles Times and Publisher Put on Leave

#53

Post by cookiecaper » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 10:34 PM UTC

untog wrote: post #4

chollida1 wrote: post #2

I thought this was interesting because if knowledge workers like journalists can do so, why not programmers, or what ever term you'd prefer to be called?

It is interesting that programmers (as a whole) seem resistant to it. It's often described as being unnecessary, but when you go one or two posts down HN you find people decrying long hours, open plan offices, weekend callouts, etc. etc. I suspect it's just that when the going is good, people don't really think they need a union. If the prophecies come true and AI starts writing code for us, you can bet people will s…

Unions are romanticized a lot in the current culture, but we shouldn't just pretend that they're purely positive. The union is a middle man between the employee and the employer. Unions can and do extract dues, impose their own rules and stipulations, and add friction and bloat to employment. If you don't like the restrictions or the rates that have been negotiated, you have a lot less freedom to move around and do something about it. If you cross the union, well, good luck.

I'm not trying to argue that unions are wholly bad either, but there's a trade-off to be had here. It's not as simple as "people dislike unions because they're too dumb to realize that they want one".

Re: Union Is Formed at Los Angeles Times and Publisher Put on Leave

#54

Post by pktgen » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 10:34 PM UTC

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #16

dmix wrote: post #6

I'm curious what effect this will have on all the constant cries for more "real journalism" instead of companies pushing for low budget high volume output and semi-digitized content milling. Hiring "real journalists" full time just got a lot more expensive for a company that was already attempting to reinvent itself in a struggle for profitability in a strained industry. Also, can't the LA Times easily just buy up mo…

> Also, can't the LA Times easily just buy up more freelance material from non-employees (not only journalism, graphics, web work, etc)? Not if the union's any good.

You're being downvoted, but I don't know why. The employer's ability to subcontract/outsource bargaining unit work is negotiable in a collective bargaining agreement.

Re: Union Is Formed at Los Angeles Times and Publisher Put on Leave

#55

Post by untog » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 10:36 PM UTC

dmix wrote: post #46

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also, can't the LA Times easily just buy up more freelance material from non-employees (not only journalism, graphics, web work, etc)? Not if the union's any good.

In what way could they stop the company from doing this? Besides making firing (even bad) employees difficult? Any future growth that may have previously resulted in hiring full time workers could easily now be redirected to freelance, temp work, and p/t workers regardless of the union. I remember watching a Tronc video when it was trendy to make fun of them and they were already talking heavily about digitizing much…

> could easily now be redirected to freelance, temp work, and p/t workers regardless of the union

Not if the union is willing to go on strike. This is one of the main things a union can achieve.

Re: Union Is Formed at Los Angeles Times and Publisher Put on Leave

#56

Post by theklr » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 10:36 PM UTC

joemaller1 wrote: post #23

Because forming a union worked out so well at Gothamist and DNA Info...

That was a totally different environment, it was a monopsonistic structure where the head determined the ROI wasn't even worth the discussion. But same issue, most media is bad at revenue streams, but technically Walmart and Amazon (and most retailers) are for that mark.

What troubles me if this is the logic for our newspapers (especially local which cover tangible issues that we could actually change in comparison to a CNN/Fox News/MSNBC) what does that say about our trust in the fourth estate? When they disappear, who will watch our officials? Cause we collectively have been on the ball for the last 30 odd years...

Re: Union Is Formed at Los Angeles Times and Publisher Put on Leave

#57

Post by untog » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 10:36 PM UTC

dmix wrote: post #6

I'm curious what effect this will have on all the constant cries for more "real journalism" instead of companies pushing for low budget high volume output and semi-digitized content milling. Hiring "real journalists" full time just got a lot more expensive for a company that was already attempting to reinvent itself in a struggle for profitability in a strained industry. Also, can't the LA Times easily just buy up mo…

Arguably, the journalists forming this union are now better placed to fight the company pushing for high volume clickbait trash. They can, collectively, refuse to publish it.

Re: Union Is Formed at Los Angeles Times and Publisher Put on Leave

#58

Post by ryandrake » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 10:37 PM UTC

ng12 wrote: post #5

chollida1 wrote: post #2

I thought this was interesting because if knowledge workers like journalists can do so, why not programmers, or what ever term you'd prefer to be called?

Why do we need a union in a seller's market? If I'm unhappy with my job I can quit and get a new one in a week. It's not about being a knowledge worker. Screenwriters are unionized because there are many more people who want to write than there are gigs, therefore there's a high potential for abuse.

Congratulations if you honestly can "quit and get a new job in a week". This is not true for the vast majority of tech professionals. Even if it were currently true in general, it will not be true during the next inevitable tech downturn (I've survived two of them in 20 years so far, knock on wood).

Also, organizing is not just about protecting one's job. It's about collectively negotiating for stuff like pay, benefits, working conditions, etc. that are extremely difficult to negotiate as a single employee due to the vast power imbalance in the employee/employer relationship. I don't know about you, but my last few jobs offered almost zero room to negotiate anything--like most jobs, when you work in tech you work entirely on your employer's terms.

Re: Union Is Formed at Los Angeles Times and Publisher Put on Leave

#59

Post by AndyMcConachie » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 10:37 PM UTC

joemaller1 wrote: post #23

Because forming a union worked out so well at Gothamist and DNA Info...

They were shutdown by management as retaliation for the workers unionizing. I don't know if that's an argument in favour of unions or against them. But it's definitely an argument for organized labor in general.

Re: Union Is Formed at Los Angeles Times and Publisher Put on Leave

#60

Post by AnimalMuppet » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 10:37 PM UTC

dmix wrote: post #46

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also, can't the LA Times easily just buy up more freelance material from non-employees (not only journalism, graphics, web work, etc)? Not if the union's any good.

In what way could they stop the company from doing this? Besides making firing (even bad) employees difficult? Any future growth that may have previously resulted in hiring full time workers could easily now be redirected to freelance, temp work, and p/t workers regardless of the union. I remember watching a Tronc video when it was trendy to make fun of them and they were already talking heavily about digitizing much…

They could stop the company from doing this by negotiating work rules.

Some (many? most?) union contracts with companies specify that X type of work must be done by members of the union. For example, in TV stations, among the graphics equipment like character generators, the union rules at least used to be that engineers could use the keyboard, but only (union) artists could use the mouse. At the time, I worked for a character generator company; we deliberately made our character generator so that you could do everything from the keyboard, even though it had a mouse.