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What’s So Dangerous About Jordan Peterson?

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Re: What’s So Dangerous About Jordan Peterson?

#121

Post by beat »

jnbiche wrote: post #113
stcredzero wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So when I hear Jordan Peterson say he's being oppressed by the evil forces of Marxist postmodernism for being asked to use preferred pronouns... But you've never heard that. You've only heard him reject being coerced to do that. He's even on the record as saying he's fine with addressing people as they'd like to be addressed, so long as it's all done civilly. What you're doing is projecting a caricatured position ont…

> A law that empowers kangaroo courts sin't "simply asking nice." A law that empowers those courts to use an unscientific "unconscious bias" test that claims to get into your head isn't "simply asking nice." A law that can result in dismissal from your job isn't "simply asking nice." I'd like to underline this statement. Making this into a law that will impact employment, sentencing, etc., is not a polite request. It…

I'm a civil libertarian myself. It makes me uncomfortable. But people seem hell-bent on missing my point in order to correct me for God forbid equating coercion and oppression.

My actual godddamned POINT is that, whatever the logical merits of Peterson's position coming from him, the practical effect is for a hundred thousand red-pill assholes to share excerpted clips around, and thinking it means that a wise philosopher agrees with their joy in being mean to people over their gender identity.

Re: What’s So Dangerous About Jordan Peterson?

#122

Post by reitanqild »

api wrote: post #94
mizzack wrote: post #23

I think the "danger" around Jordan Peterson goes beyond the pronoun debate. Individualism and wariness of ideological collectivism seem to be tenets of what he espouses. No surprise, then, that ideological collectivists are his most vocal enemies.

Why do so many fascists and racists like him then? They're collectivists. (Not necessarily saying Peterson is a fascist or a racist, but that's a separate question.)

> Why do so many fascists and racists like him then?

Because they aren't very bright and also don’t pay attention when he tell them how stupid their ideology is?

Re: What’s So Dangerous About Jordan Peterson?

#123

Post by AnimalMuppet »

beat wrote: post #24

Thinking to his issue over pronouns... He's arguing that he should not be coerced into using preferred pronouns. Ok, that's fine. But he should use preferred pronouns anyway, in order to not be an asshole . Because refusing to use preferred pronouns isn't standing up to oppressive postmodern SJWs. It's being an asshole. And this is the real headache with Jordan Peterson. He may be thoughtful and interesting. But for…

I think I generally agree with your second paragraph. We should not deliberately be jerks to others, even if they are different from us. And also, we should not be under legal coercion to not be jerks - that way lies at least serious trouble, and maybe social madness.

But I think I disagree with your third paragraph. People who have thoughtful, interesting things to say should say them. (They should also take care to specify what they don't mean, to discredit "followers" who run off in bad directions. Or else, if they agree with those followers, non-followers will conclude that the bad directions taint the thoughtful and interesting things.)

Re: What’s So Dangerous About Jordan Peterson?

#124

Post by stcredzero »

beat wrote: post #119
stcredzero wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So when I hear Jordan Peterson say he's being oppressed by the evil forces of Marxist postmodernism for being asked to use preferred pronouns... But you've never heard that. You've only heard him reject being coerced to do that. He's even on the record as saying he's fine with addressing people as they'd like to be addressed, so long as it's all done civilly. What you're doing is projecting a caricatured position ont…

You're being pedantic. I'm characterizing what he's saying using colorful language of my own, but the principles are the same. He objects to gender pronoun changes because he sees them as postmodernism, he believes postmodernism derives from Marxism, and he sees Marxism as authoritarian oppression. So in Peterson's worldview, the difference between being asked to use ze and zim by someone, and sending Solzhenitsyn to…

I'm characterizing what he's saying using colorful language of my own, but the principles are the same.

No. It's one thing to advocate that everyone should be nice and say "hello." It's an entirely different thing to advocate for a law that says you will be dragged before a kangaroo court for failing to say "hello," where a scientifically dubious "test of unconscious bias" will be used as evidence of your guilt. Either your bias is showing, or you're missing the distinction.

So in Peterson's worldview, the difference between being asked to use ze and zim by someone, and sending Solzhenitsyn to a Siberian death camp, is merely a matter of degree, not of kind.

If you study the detailed legal history of the Weimar Republic, then you'd be prone to agree. The Nazis didn't have to change the Weimar laws a whole lot, because the Left-leaning Weimar republic left loopholes in the law that basically amounted to, "...unless the state deems it for the common good."

If you let "activists" erode due process and create "crimes" of "unconscious bias," then you are creating legal means for people to engage in the sorts of accusations which sent people to the Gulag. The Magna Carta and particularly Habeas Corpus came about because laws which were about one thing were abused out of poltical expedience.

Re: What’s So Dangerous About Jordan Peterson?

#125

Post by dragonwriter »

stcredzero wrote: post #124
beat wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're being pedantic. I'm characterizing what he's saying using colorful language of my own, but the principles are the same. He objects to gender pronoun changes because he sees them as postmodernism, he believes postmodernism derives from Marxism, and he sees Marxism as authoritarian oppression. So in Peterson's worldview, the difference between being asked to use ze and zim by someone, and sending Solzhenitsyn to…

I'm characterizing what he's saying using colorful language of my own, but the principles are the same. No. It's one thing to advocate that everyone should be nice and say "hello." It's an entirely different thing to advocate for a law that says you will be dragged before a kangaroo court for failing to say "hello," where a scientifically dubious "test of unconscious bias" will be used as evidence of your guilt. Eith…

> It's one thing to advocate that everyone should be nice and say "hello." It's an entirely different thing to advocate for a law that says you will be dragged before a kangaroo court for failing to say "hello," where a scientifically dubious "test of unconscious bias" will be used as evidence of your guilt.

And it's yet another thing to criticize a law for saying that when, in fact, the law says nothing of the sort.

Re: What’s So Dangerous About Jordan Peterson?

#126

Post by lixtra »

stcredzero wrote: post #77
lixtra wrote: post #49

I would place myself in the conservative corner, but I find Peterson quite problematic. 1. It just feels too good to hear him talk in those maps of meaning lectures. But if you don’t „follow“ and instead analyze what he is saying and how he forms an argument, then you realize that he is not arguing but just putting metaphors together and interpreting them as he sees fit in the moment. That’s why it’s so appealing. Bu…

1. It just feels too good to hear him talk in those maps of meaning lectures...just putting metaphors together and interpreting them as he sees fit in the moment. That’s why it’s so appealing. But quite often it’s not logic and even less conclusive. Pretty much like a TED talk. Actually, if you look up TED talks about how to be an effective speaker, you will find the advice to talk in simple language and to use metap…

1. I already agreed that his lectures are appealing. Do you agree that his arguments are not logic and conclusive?

2. Fair enough. I shall try if I ever hear his stuff again. With all the metaphors flying around it shouldn’t be to difficult. But can you point out where he says it’s so great to be alive?

3. If you call „I survived the gulag where thousands perished“ as a silver lining you must have a pretty grim world view.

You agree that the Gulag Archipelago is not a relevant reference point to 95% of his western audience. If you don’t find it depressing you must have a very strong character, I would assume a good portion gets depressed (in mood; clinical depression is out of my judgment).

Re: What’s So Dangerous About Jordan Peterson?

#127

Post by lixtra »

hashberry wrote: post #63
lixtra wrote: post #49

I would place myself in the conservative corner, but I find Peterson quite problematic. 1. It just feels too good to hear him talk in those maps of meaning lectures. But if you don’t „follow“ and instead analyze what he is saying and how he forms an argument, then you realize that he is not arguing but just putting metaphors together and interpreting them as he sees fit in the moment. That’s why it’s so appealing. Bu…

I understand that cult leaders can be problematic. But do you think his followers are becoming a danger to society?

In total it’s a tiny rather peaceful group. I don’t see a danger for society.

I’m sure he does help some of his followers. But I doubt that most of his followers profit long term from him. At some point they should move on for their own good.

Re: What’s So Dangerous About Jordan Peterson?

#128

Post by stcredzero »

beat wrote: post #121
jnbiche wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A law that empowers kangaroo courts sin't "simply asking nice." A law that empowers those courts to use an unscientific "unconscious bias" test that claims to get into your head isn't "simply asking nice." A law that can result in dismissal from your job isn't "simply asking nice." I'd like to underline this statement. Making this into a law that will impact employment, sentencing, etc., is not a polite request. It…

I'm a civil libertarian myself. It makes me uncomfortable. But people seem hell-bent on missing my point in order to correct me for God forbid equating coercion and oppression. My actual godddamned POINT is that, whatever the logical merits of Peterson's position coming from him , the practical effect is for a hundred thousand red-pill assholes to share excerpted clips around, and thinking it means that a wise philos…

No matter what position you pick, some gaggle of idiots on the Internet are using it as a pretext for being a dick. A lot of the acrimony coming from the Right is a reaction to others doing it using pretexts from the Left.

The solution is to have reasoned dialogue. If you follow Peterson's message, he seems to have explicitly decided to minister to lost young clueless right-wing men, by urging them to clean their rooms, and live worthwhile, responsible lives. In fact, I remember the video where he talks about becoming aware that so many of his followers were effectively Alt-Right, and seeing him hesitate, then say he didn't know what to make of that.

He also talks about the mechanisms by which a crowd can suborn a speaker, so I think he's actively fighting against that.

thinking it means that a wise philosopher agrees with their joy in being mean to people over their gender identity

It seems to me that a lot of people did exactly that, coming from the far Left, in the name of Intersectionality. It was also done with racial identity. (Google "Feminist Cringe" & "Dartmouth College Library Activists")

Re: What’s So Dangerous About Jordan Peterson?

#129

Post by cholantesh »

rosser wrote: post #74
Erik816 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are calling someone's sincerity into question because other people have an incorrect perception of what they are saying?

Does he endeavor in any way to correct this mis-perception or disassociate himself from those who hold it? A lack of condemnation can, not unreasonably, be construed as a tacit endorsement.

That and saying "I'm not ______", and then turning around and saying ______ things is a sign that you're at best lacking in self-awareness and at worst lying.

Re: What’s So Dangerous About Jordan Peterson?

#130

Post by mywittyname »

Erik816 wrote: post #75

What is often lost since Peterson became "famous" after the whole gender pronoun controversy is the quality and depth of his thinking and lecturing that was already available on YouTube. This article starts with that, and explains his popularity as a teacher at Harvard and Toronto. I had been watching his lectures for about a year before the pronoun issue, and his ideas are fascinating and deep. They tie together man…

I was quite surprised to discover that the alt-right venerate him. I got the impression that he was pretty liberal. I mean, I support LGBTQ rights, but don't agree that people should be forced to use appropriate gender pronouns.

I thoroughly enjoyed his old lectures, but I've avoided watching any of his newer stuff for fear of finding out if he's begun to pander to his (largely) awful followers.

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