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Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

nytimes.com

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Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#211

Post by lanewinfield »

burkemw3 wrote: post #117
rthomas6 wrote: post #42

This is one of the only places in the US where public transportation is kind of good. Many people in NYC don't own a car and don't even know how to drive. It boggles my mind the amount of people complaining about how expensive it is to drive to Manhattan. ...Why did you drive in the first place? Unless you need to carry something large/heavy, there's no real reason to drive there. Just park, take a cab/train there, a…

In my experience as a Brooklynite, the time trade-offs really depend on the time of day. Outside of commuting hours, taking a car is usually faster than taking a subway for me. There are, of course, other benefits of the subway, including lower costs and the possibility of doing something else like reading.

And imagine how much better it would be outside of commuting hours if congestion pricing cash were put into the subways...

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#212

Post by dqpb »

lazerpants wrote: post #58
nwah1 wrote: post #7

Congestion pricing is one of the most economically literate ways to improve traffic, and those funds can be used to improve infrastructure. It isn't so different from surge pricing in ridesharing apps. There is a narrowmindedness on the part of opponents of both congestion pricing and surge pricing, because they are ignoring the obvious point that if they weren't paying the fees they'd be paying in terms of time. Not…

I'm always surprised by the only-in-this-circumstance libertarian philosophy of people who support congestion pricing. I think if you took the exact same logic and applied it to say, schools, supporters would feel completely differently about it. Example: It's really hard to get your child into certain public schools in NYC. Why not start charging $3k a year per child (much less than private schools) at high demand s…

In my view, the fundamental difference between roads and schools is this (in general):

more cars on the road == worse for me

more educated people == better for me

That said, I wouldn't necessarily oppose a congestion fee for schools, especially if that money was used to replicate the success of desirable schools in non-desirable schools.

Although in reality I don't think feeding more money into our archaic school system is the answer, it needs to be reengineered from the ground up, but thats a totally different conversation.

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#213

Post by ChiliConKanye »

hartator wrote: post #148
rsynnott wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's amazing how habit-forming driving seems to be. A friend was recently talking about a colleague of his who lives right next to a tram stop and works right next to another stop on the same tram line. 20 minute tram journey, tram every five minutes at peak time. And instead they drive an hour to work at rush hour, because they're from a rural area and are used to driving. Makes no sense to me at all...

I think you have to live in big city and have taken public transportation on a daily basis, to understand the frustations, the dalays, the insecurity, the smell, the crowdness, and the freedom reducing of it.

I lived in a medium-sized city in the middle of the US for several years (transit not viable option for 95% of trips). Now I live in NY and almost only take transit (every now and then I'll take a taxi/lyft). So I have about 5 years of experience with both lifestyles and I appreciate almost every single of aspect of NY/transit better. Sure delays suck but I just listen to my podcasts and chill, much preferable to gridlock on the interstate. "Crowds" you have to deal with either way, what do you think causes all that traffic? And, I feel I have a lot more freedom. Never have to park far away, never have to remember where I left my car, never have to pay for it or worry about it breaking down or getting broken into, never get it towed, never tempted to drive it after one too many drinks. I can go everywhere I could ever want just as easily or more.

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#214

Post by wyattk »

matwood wrote: post #156
lazerpants wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm always surprised by the only-in-this-circumstance libertarian philosophy of people who support congestion pricing. I think if you took the exact same logic and applied it to say, schools, supporters would feel completely differently about it. Example: It's really hard to get your child into certain public schools in NYC. Why not start charging $3k a year per child (much less than private schools) at high demand s…

> Why is congestion pricing okay when applying the same philosophy to other matters of public good isn't? Good question. Will we see sayings like "Save Road Neutrality"? Net neutrality is something that prevents ISPs from practicing a form of congestion pricing (zero rating, charge more for certain packets, etc...), yet the death of net neutrality has been likened to the death of the internet. One of things I struggl…

Not quite. We're talking about something that is publicly-owned (roads) to something that is (besides certain municipal projects) privately-owned (last-mile internet access). Compounding this difference, there is monopolistic tendencies that arise with internet as it's rarely competitive. We're talking apples to cows here.

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#215

Post by dionidium »

njarboe wrote: post #170
nwah1 wrote: post #7

Congestion pricing is one of the most economically literate ways to improve traffic, and those funds can be used to improve infrastructure. It isn't so different from surge pricing in ridesharing apps. There is a narrowmindedness on the part of opponents of both congestion pricing and surge pricing, because they are ignoring the obvious point that if they weren't paying the fees they'd be paying in terms of time. Not…

I think most people would support congestion pricing, if all the money collected went to building more road capacity. The people paying to get a fast trip now would be seen (and actually be) supporting faster trips for everyone in the future. Right now it just builds more resentment toward the 1%. Unfortunately this situation is not really possible today as places that so congested to want to use congestion pricing o…

This is directly in opposition to the goals of congestion pricing. Traffic engineering has some not-so-intuitive principles. Adding capacity, for example, increases congestion through a mechanism known as induced demand. We don't want to create more demand for private cars in Manhattan, so your suggestion supports an anti-goal.

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#216

Post by jessaustin »

ars wrote: post #185
moogleii wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I would counter that while driving is certainly a privilege, the roads themselves are a right, or a public good, comparable to schools. So regardless of what hoops you have to jump through to purchase and license your car, once jumped, the roads are analogous to the schools. FWIW, roads were for people first, not cars.

> FWIW, roads were for people first, not cars. That isn't true. They are for people. First people in wagons, then people in cars. But always for people.

It will be interesting to see how unoccupied robocars will deal with random aggressive pedestrians. I'm almost as hopeful as you seem to be here.

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#217

Post by dionidium »

rthomas6 wrote: post #42

This is one of the only places in the US where public transportation is kind of good. Many people in NYC don't own a car and don't even know how to drive. It boggles my mind the amount of people complaining about how expensive it is to drive to Manhattan. ...Why did you drive in the first place? Unless you need to carry something large/heavy, there's no real reason to drive there. Just park, take a cab/train there, a…

Transit advocates like to point to New Yorkers as evidence that not everyone likes to drive, but I think NYC shows exactly the opposite to be the case, which is that people will put up with insane amounts of inconvenience to avoid public transit.

The fact that even a quarter of Manhattanites own a car demonstrates that people are willing to absorb enormous costs to continue driving. (A much higher percentage than that would, I'm sure, still like to own a car in Manhattan, but simply can't afford it.)

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#218

Post by jessaustin »

njarboe wrote: post #172
tlrobinson wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Discouraging driving has other benefits such as reducing pollution, noise, space needed for parking, etc. The good schools are going to be filled no matter what, so trying to assign them the fairest way possible makes sense.

Probably more that 50% of what makes a school good are the students that go to them. Once this is realized, fairly assigning students to the good schools becomes problematic.

...what makes a school good are the students...

This claim seems probably true for university and probably false for kindergarten?

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#219

Post by blibble »

lclarkmichalek wrote: post #47

London has something similar, the congestion charge. Has helped somewhat, and def makes regular driving in central London a 'you did what?' thing. It's lifted on the weekend, which is nice if you want to pop to IKEA or whatever. I think they're planning on pushing something similar all the way out to the north circular, and maybe the M25 for heavily polluting traffic.

problem is now levels are back up to what they were before the charge happened

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#220

Post by akgerber »

dionidium wrote: post #217
rthomas6 wrote: post #42

This is one of the only places in the US where public transportation is kind of good. Many people in NYC don't own a car and don't even know how to drive. It boggles my mind the amount of people complaining about how expensive it is to drive to Manhattan. ...Why did you drive in the first place? Unless you need to carry something large/heavy, there's no real reason to drive there. Just park, take a cab/train there, a…

Transit advocates like to point to New Yorkers as evidence that not everyone likes to drive, but I think NYC shows exactly the opposite to be the case, which is that people will put up with insane amounts of inconvenience to avoid public transit. The fact that even a quarter of Manhattanites own a car demonstrates that people are willing to absorb enormous costs to continue driving. (A much higher percentage than tha…

Many New Yorkers own cars for weekend trips or recreation, not commuting— if you've ever seen how long it takes for many cars to get dug out and moved in NYC after a snowstorm when alternate-side parking is suspended, this becomes very clear.
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