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CIA rendition flights from rustic North Carolina called to account by citizens

theguardian.com

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Re: CIA rendition flights from rustic North Carolina called to account by citizens

#161

Post by dandare »

lightbyte wrote: post #155
baud147258 wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

European here too. I thought another problem with closing Guantanamo was what to do with the prisoners.

If I'm remembering correctly, that was actually the main problem. Most, if not all, are being held based on evidence or intelligence that would not fly in a typical American trial. If they closed Gitmo and brought the detainees to the US for trial, almost all would have to be released. I'm not necessarily saying that is a bad things, surely some (or even all) do not deserve to be held and should be released, but all…

Exactly this. Let's torture people (or drone their families) to make sure they don't commit terrorist attacks. What could go wrong?

Re: CIA rendition flights from rustic North Carolina called to account by citizens

#162

Post by oldsklgdfth »

pc86 wrote: post #160
oldsklgdfth wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess a follow-up question is if there are laws against rendition. Is this just a legal loop hole for torture?

Honestly I don't know the legalities around the actual act of rendition. But even if it's illegal, it's much easier to hide that one flight than it is to hide someone being tortured within the United States. Plus, if someone is in a basement in Queens and they escape, they're in Queens. If someone escapes a basement in the middle of Poland, who cares?

In the off chance that you are torturing someone and incompetent enough to allow them to escape. I bet that's happen a few times.

Re: CIA rendition flights from rustic North Carolina called to account by citizens

#163

Post by oldsklgdfth »

stordoff wrote: post #154
oldsklgdfth wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So they are violating the law of the "land", by literally going to different land. This sounds a lot like corporate/beaurocratic cover-your-ass policy that is there so you don't get fired. It just seems to me that someone like the CIA could torture in some basement in area-51 and they would still be untouchable. In a weird way this kinda speaks a bit to the power of the constitution or the respect that it holds. Even…

I wonder if it's more logistical than legal - extraordinary rendition, by its nature, already exists outside of the law. It is, however, easier to hide someone outside of the country (from legal representatives etc.) and deny their existence, it's easier to hide the facilities, and it's easier to find skilled and willing practitioners of torture in a country which practices it more widely (boy, that's a fun thought :…

The whole thing is just so absurd and a little ridiculous. It's like some spy novel narrative where they can just burn money and fly around the world to torture a handful of people for information.

It would be more reasonable if it was done with a roll of duck tape at a random motel-6 in the middle of nowhere.

Re: CIA rendition flights from rustic North Carolina called to account by citizens

#164

Post by jordigh »

jVinc wrote: post #139
rdtsc wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Obama administration basically stopped trying to capture people alive to interrogate them and instead just sent drone based missiles to just kill anyone suspected of terrorism. Not only that but after receiving a Nobel Peace Prize he proceeded to engage in drone warfare. Just in 2016 he dropped more then 20k bombs, in countries which we were not even at war with. Many in Africa. It was surprising how little flak he…

"It was surprising how little flak he got for it." Indeed. The very same democrats who mock Trump supporters for not denouncing him when he said "Grab them by the pussy" did not denounce Obama when he literally sent automated killer robots to kill people in foreign countries not even at war with the united states. In a two party system, you ignore bad things and back your guy, because what is the alternative? Backing…

> The very same democrats who mock Trump supporters for not denouncing him when he said "Grab them by the pussy"

What does that have to do with Obama? Trump wasn't in the picture when Obama did any of this. This whole "what about you?" kind of rhetoric is utterly useless and pointless. All it does is reinforce football team politics.

Look at each case without trying to diminish one case by saying someone else did something worse. Obama messed up or deliberately did awful things and his actions have got nothing to do with anything anyone said or did about Trump later.

Re: CIA rendition flights from rustic North Carolina called to account by citizens

#165

Post by maxxxxx »

ImSkeptical wrote: post #159
maxxxxx wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I understand your position. In the scenario you describe any kind of violence/torture needs to be done quickly to avert the situation. Otherwise it's too late. If the CIA renditions were based on something similar they shouldn't fly people to questionable countries but instead interrogate themselves quickly because times is of essence. Everything else would be irresponsible.

The scenario I'm describing doesn't involve any sort of violence or torture, which again, makes me think you're missing my point or conflating my position with something else.

You mentioned a scenario where police beats a thief. How is that not violence? What's your position? I am really curious.

Re: CIA rendition flights from rustic North Carolina called to account by citizens

#166

Post by reitanqild »

michaelmrose wrote: post #113
reitanqild wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Works. Proof: me. I've changed my mind on certain topics - esp drugs and to a certain degree AGW based on discussions. Protip: calling me a troll, paid shill, downvoting honest questions doesn't work on people like me. I do however listen to reasonable arguments and take pride in being able to change my mind.

From the perspective of someone who has been on both sides of the arguments regarding climate change how is it possible to be intelligent and not believe in climate change. I absolutely don't mean to imply you are stupid. I had a relative who was extremely intelligent, his career being aurospace engineer who didn't believe in cimate change and another a computer programmer who didn't believe in evolution. I don't thi…

> how is it possible to be intelligent and not believe in climate change.

Ok, let me give it a try. A few years ago I knew nothing about climate science.

My scepticism (not denying) was grounded in the overwhelming focus on feelings, not numbers.

When someone started answer my questions with measurable numbers my scepticism waned.

So I might have been wrong about this but I think it is often a nice heuristic: when people refuse to give you data and insist on either playing your feelings (with pictures of sad animals), appeal to authority (2500 scientists...) or outright calling you a troll then it could be because there was no hard data.

Re: CIA rendition flights from rustic North Carolina called to account by citizens

#167

Post by mrguyorama »

crankylinuxuser wrote: post #143
EliRivers wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sets a very useful precedent too, opening the door for bringing back Roman Catholic bans.

True that, but they're still Christians as far as R's are concerned. Yeah, they do have some weird radical views like the Pope - but those can be fixed. The people in the middle east worship a "psychotic man with a hairy mole" (aka: Mohamed). I learned that on WIBC, 1070KHz after a multitude of interviews that Mike Pence hosted back in the mid 90's with "religion intellectuals". I was in my mid teens during that.. sh…

Many evangelicals in the south DO NOT believe that Catholics are Christians

Re: CIA rendition flights from rustic North Carolina called to account by citizens

#168

Post by mrguyorama »

reitanqild wrote: post #166
michaelmrose wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the perspective of someone who has been on both sides of the arguments regarding climate change how is it possible to be intelligent and not believe in climate change. I absolutely don't mean to imply you are stupid. I had a relative who was extremely intelligent, his career being aurospace engineer who didn't believe in cimate change and another a computer programmer who didn't believe in evolution. I don't thi…

> how is it possible to be intelligent and not believe in climate change. Ok, let me give it a try. A few years ago I knew nothing about climate science. My scepticism (not denying) was grounded in the overwhelming focus on feelings, not numbers. When someone started answer my questions with measurable numbers my scepticism waned. So I might have been wrong about this but I think it is often a nice heuristic: when pe…

The problem is that plenty of people are being told "Those numbers are Fake!" and believe that with all their heart. You can't fight willful ignorance.

Re: CIA rendition flights from rustic North Carolina called to account by citizens

#169

Post by michaelmrose »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #137
michaelmrose wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the perspective of someone who has been on both sides of the arguments regarding climate change how is it possible to be intelligent and not believe in climate change. I absolutely don't mean to imply you are stupid. I had a relative who was extremely intelligent, his career being aurospace engineer who didn't believe in cimate change and another a computer programmer who didn't believe in evolution. I don't thi…

Your examples are both about people being sceptical, but then you say: >"I don't think I understand how people can believe nonsense [...]" // Are these supposed to be related. Not believing in evolution doesn't mean you do believe in nonsense, for example. Once you've been around the block a few times it's easy to get cynical about scientific claims. Too much scientism.

The programmer believed that god waved a magic wand to bring into being all present and prior animals. He had thought about this extensively and had done research and still believed the magic wand explanation.

Re: CIA rendition flights from rustic North Carolina called to account by citizens

#170

Post by michaelmrose »

reitanqild wrote: post #166
michaelmrose wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the perspective of someone who has been on both sides of the arguments regarding climate change how is it possible to be intelligent and not believe in climate change. I absolutely don't mean to imply you are stupid. I had a relative who was extremely intelligent, his career being aurospace engineer who didn't believe in cimate change and another a computer programmer who didn't believe in evolution. I don't thi…

> how is it possible to be intelligent and not believe in climate change. Ok, let me give it a try. A few years ago I knew nothing about climate science. My scepticism (not denying) was grounded in the overwhelming focus on feelings, not numbers. When someone started answer my questions with measurable numbers my scepticism waned. So I might have been wrong about this but I think it is often a nice heuristic: when pe…

Thanks. I've usually looked at such people as lost causes who can't be convinced. It seems its worth investing more time to communicate with people.
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