Getting free of toxic tech culture • Hacker News Board

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#371

Post by commandlinefan » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 3:52 PM UTC

rifung wrote: post #17

oceanghost wrote: post #8

I've written software for Intel, Nintendo, Samsung, LG, DirecTV, Applied Materials, Microsoft, and Apple to name a few. My last project was the basis for an entire business line at a 500m/yr company. I am unemployable because I'm a white male whose in his 40s, has a family, and because somehow, in this industry experience is a bad thing. It amazes me how intolerant of age and differing opinion tech culture is.

> I am unemployable because I'm a white male whose in his 40s, has a family, and because somehow, in this industry experience is a bad thing. What indications do you have that those are the reasons you are unemployable? I have many well respected, senior coworkers who fit this description so at least personally I don't understand why people would be hesitant to hire you based on that description alone..

Well, I'm sure nobody's ever walked up to oceanghost and said, "I'm not hiring you because you're an old(er) white male" (although, unlike every other possible form of discrimination, that would be perfectly legal), he just probably has a sense that this is what's going on based on the attitudes around him. But I doubt that the author of the linked article has ever had anybody come up to her and say "I'm not hiring you/promoting you/supporting you because you're a woman (or 'of color')", either - if they had, I suspect it would have worked it's way into her article somewhere. Instead, she just gauges the attitudes of the people around her and makes her best guess as to why things aren't working out the way she wants them to. If her suppositions are reasonable, then oceanghost's are, too.

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#372

Post by rainbowmverse » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 3:54 PM UTC

mcv wrote: post #342

thiht wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>• Get a life (that is, a life outside of work – build stuff in your garage, hike, play in a band, paint, whatever). I notice a trend in being demeaning towards people not wanting to do anything besides computing/tech. Why is that acceptable? Is my life worse because I don't do "hiking" or some other stuff? I like spending my free time coding, and I hate hearing I should do "something better with my life".

"Build something in your garage" could be tech related. But it's important to do things other than work.

The image of the tech titan that got started in their garage was the standard thing not that long ago. I actually can't remember the last time I saw it. Now it seems like it's "get in the ground floor on someone else's world-changing startup."

Is this just my limited perspective or has the narrative really shifted?

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#373

Post by rainbowmverse » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 4:00 PM UTC

mcv wrote: post #364

rainbowmverse wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Watch the credits roll some time. Actors are a tiny part of making a movie.

They get all of the screen time, though.

An overall more diverse production provides more pathways into the industry for marginalized people, and some of those pathways will lead to acting.

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#374

Post by candybar » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 4:15 PM UTC

I'm your garden-variety liberal who works at a tech company and the description here is entirely foreign to me. I've mostly worked outside of tech and my social circle outside of work is almost entirely liberal but non-tech - the tech world is far more progressive, the culture is far more supportive in general and more specifically in the direction that is favorable to outsiders and marginalized minorities. Outside of my tech social circle, it's extremely common to hear casually racist and sexist remarks that would get you either fired or ostracized at tech companies. And that's before you get to heteronormativity that is endemic in mainstream society but is frowned upon at most tech companies. The sensitivity towards transgender people is also mostly non-existent in non-tech, non-elite mainstream society, even among liberals.

Maybe Valerie Aurora can find places that are more supportive than tech, but the median work environment in the US is full of Trump supporters and can be outwardly misogynistic, racist and transphobic. The myopia here among people who have rarely experienced the life outside the bubble is quite concerning.

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#375

Post by JKCalhoun » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 4:24 PM UTC

thiht wrote: post #334

JKCalhoun wrote: post #116

I agree with essentially everything in the article — and I'm not a marginalized type (white male, actually). • Avoid the "cult-like" trappings. • Avoid "genius worship" and call bullshit on the "reality distortion field". • Get a life (that is, a life outside of work – build stuff in your garage, hike, play in a band, paint, whatever). • Stay healthy. You're valuable to the corporation, they will allow for you to tak…

>• Get a life (that is, a life outside of work – build stuff in your garage, hike, play in a band, paint, whatever). I notice a trend in being demeaning towards people not wanting to do anything besides computing/tech. Why is that acceptable? Is my life worse because I don't do "hiking" or some other stuff? I like spending my free time coding, and I hate hearing I should do "something better with my life".

I don't see anything I said that is demeaning. I didn't say it was a shitty thing to not have a life outside tech.

If you never get burned out or otherwise disillusioned with "tech", more power to you.

I suspect most of us eventually find we need something more in our lives though — I was addressing those people (and I suspect the article was as well).

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#376

Post by candybar » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 4:31 PM UTC

Consultant32452 wrote: post #283

trhway wrote: post #21

>What is toxic tech culture? Toxic tech cultures are those that demean and devalue you as holistic, multifaceted human beings. Toxic tech cultures are those that prioritize profits and growth over human and societal well being. Toxic tech cultures are those that treat you as replaceable cogs within a system of constant churn and burnout. has there been any factory floor, farm, private or government office where thing…

I feel like some of this may be more pronounced in areas like SV. Specifically, areas of the highest competition. The personality traits that correlate most strongly with success are: high conscientiousness, high stress tolerance, and low agreeableness. Of course it makes sense that the people in the areas of stiffest competition in tech are in an environment of high stress and are generally really disagreeable to be…

It's hard to generalize but I don't think it's true for the kinds of things Valerie Aurora cares about. My experience is that those competitive SV companies have the most supportive culture when it comes to marginalized minorities, while software companies that aren't in SV and aren't run like SV tech companies are closer to non-tech companies, both in terms of sensitivity towards minorities and political orientation of their people.

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#377

Post by tinymollusk » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 4:34 PM UTC

DoreenMichele wrote: post #139

smsm42 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been in SV for a decade now and I am not observing anything cult-like. I haven't worked for companies like Google or Facebook or any other giant behemoths, so no idea how things are there, but in other places it's pretty far from a cult where I am. Of course, marketing sometimes goes a bit over the board, and each release of version 8.4 is the best thing that happened to humanity since v8.3 was released and befo…

I haven't worked for companies like Google or Facebook or any other giant behemoths, so no idea how things are there, but in other places it's pretty far from a cult where I am. I worked for a non tech Fortune 500 company. It was fairly cult like. It didn't really bother me because my father and ex were both career military, so I considered the cult like elements evidence of how unimportant the work was. The military…

I disagree. Although I wasn't a military spouse or in the service, I worked on base for 7 years and saw a lot of things that made me think military service is essentially the ultimate cult.

They:

* break you down in boot camp to build you up in their image, with their values (esp Marines)

* force you to accept teachings that are demonstrably false (source: friend went to nuclear engineering school, nearly got kicked out for pointing out flaws in how they taught nuclear theory).

* control where you live, where you sleep, what you eat

* indoctrinate you (onboarding at my base was literally called "indoc[trination]")

* bestow status for pleasing the leaders of the cult (the career game)

Personally, I think the indoc makes service members believe lives and national security are on the line. Anymore, I believe the biggest threat to our country (and thus the lives of those who protect it) is ourselves.

I don't disagree this can be effective, but strongly believe the military is a cult.

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#378

Post by cbm-vic-20 » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 4:34 PM UTC

hueving wrote: post #327

tptacek wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In fact, it very probably is a tech-specific problem. Among the STEM fields, CS is almost uniquely imbalanced. STEM fields in general range from ~30-55% women, and those fields include things like Mathematics --- anyone who has gone to an academic cryptography workshop has probably noticed how many more women there are in the room --- which are strong proxies for CS ability. And, of course, among the professions in g…

>anyone who has gone to an academic cryptography workshop has probably noticed how many more women there are in the room As someone who has spent a lot of time in academic security conferences, I have to wonder what you are comparing them to. The only field with a worse female participation rate in my experience is networking (e.g. SIGCOMM). Check out this picture from EuroCrypt in 97 and count the ratio of women to…

> Clearly something is discouraging women from enrolling at the college level,

Have you ever been in a 100-level CS course? Granted, it's been a while for me, but they're generally full of 18-year-olds who lack a certain amount of social grace. IME, most people are pretty okay, but there was a notable minority of people you just don't want to spend time with: annoying, obnoxious kids who feel the constant need to correct everyone around them (including the instructors) to demonstrate how frickin' smart they are, and who don't realize they're also surrounded by other smart people who aren't as annoying and obnoxious. And, IME, many of these people actively make young women uncomfortable with their advances and behavior.

There are still lots of liberal arts schools that are very much gender-segregated (Wellesley, Smith); I can't think of any "women's" tech schools. I wonder what the CS classes and enrollment is like at places that are more-or-less women-only.

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#379

Post by commandlinefan » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 4:35 PM UTC

mpweiher wrote: post #9

As usual, the actual numbers don't back up the narrative. For example, significantly more men in the study left due to unfairness than women do: 40% vs. 31%. So either women are treated more fairly or these numbers don't mean anything, yet you would never know it from the text, which is all about the horrible things that happen to women. Hmmm...

I can't help but think that a lot of people say "tech culture" when they mean "San Fransisco/Silicon Valley tech companies", because these observations are a different world than the one I live in. I didn't graduate from MIT or Standford, so I wasn't recruited to go work on space shuttles after I graduated, I was stuck doing the "enterprise CRUD" type jobs that I didn't even realize I was supposed to hate (I was grateful to have the sort of job that let me sit in an air conditioned office and drink coffee all day). I spent four years in central Illinois in the mid 90's and, although it's true that the places I worked were predominantly white, they were also completely gender-balanced - I didn't do a headcount, but it sure looked like there were as many women there, doing technical-type jobs, as there were men. In the late 90's I moved down to north Texas and there was a shocking demographic shift in the sorts of tech companies I worked at. I've been here now for 20 years across five different employers and without exception they've all been pretty much gender balanced, but _dominated_ by Indians. So maybe 60/40 men vs. women but 95/5 Indians vs. anybody else. So it seems a little strange for me to hear somebody say that women are, say, 10% less represented in the "tech industry" than they ought to be and say that this is evidence of a vast conspiracy while ignoring what seems to me to be the elephant in the room.

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#380

Post by Consultant32452 » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 4:46 PM UTC

candybar wrote: post #376

Consultant32452 wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like some of this may be more pronounced in areas like SV. Specifically, areas of the highest competition. The personality traits that correlate most strongly with success are: high conscientiousness, high stress tolerance, and low agreeableness. Of course it makes sense that the people in the areas of stiffest competition in tech are in an environment of high stress and are generally really disagreeable to be…

It's hard to generalize but I don't think it's true for the kinds of things Valerie Aurora cares about. My experience is that those competitive SV companies have the most supportive culture when it comes to marginalized minorities, while software companies that aren't in SV and aren't run like SV tech companies are closer to non-tech companies, both in terms of sensitivity towards minorities and political orientation…

Running around yelling from the mountaintops about how many minorities you have, treating them like trophies, is not the same as sensitivity. Further, I don't know how you could suggest Google/Twitter/etc. have a sensitivity towards differing political orientations given the ongoing scandals of demonetization, censoring, etc. and the now famous DaMore memo. "Minority political orientation" doesn't mean the same thing in rural Mississippi as it means in San Francisco.