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Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

nytimes.com

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Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#21

Post by JumpCrisscross »

ethbro wrote: post #19
jimmaswell wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Large amounts of traffic means more tolls collected. They could get by fine on a normal toll amount. $15 is indefensible. Why is the answer "screw the poor"?

$15 isn't indefensible if the project is solely or mostly funded with tolls (and therefore not out of state / city budget). But as to toll (flat) vs tax (progressive), you're right: it's definitely screwing over the poor. I'm all in favor of usage based charging, but "unaffordable to live near work on a moderate salary" + "we're going to tax your daily commute, the same as your boss" doesn't feel fair.

The “fair” answer is get on a train. There are plenty of affordable communities on the Metro North, LIRR and NJ Transit.

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#22

Post by alistairSH »

qnk wrote: post #5

"drivers would not have to pay if they entered Manhattan by all but two of the city-owned East River bridges, which are now free to cross, as long as they bypassed the congestion zone." I don't think I understand this part. Why would you have to pay if you "bypass the congestion zone"? no matter where you're coming from. Now, if what this means is that you don't have to pay the $11.52 fee after having already paid th…

Poorly phrased, but I think the overall point is...

Previous proposals had the congestion zone covering a larger portion of downtown, which meant paying the toll even if you were just passing through on an arterial roadway.

New systems allow finer grained control of where the congestion zone begins. So, a small number of arterial roads/bridges can be left outside the zone, and toll-free.

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#23

Post by jimmaswell »

matchbok wrote: post #17
jimmaswell wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just recently learned about this. It's unbelievable. How can anyone defend a $15 toll? I'm glad I don't have any business in NYC.

The millions of people who do live in NYC thank you. The toll is working as expected.

So you'd rather have less people spend money at your establishments and visit tourist destinations (which is surely more than $15 spent per trip per vehicle). Whatever you say. Why not go full enclave and get rid of all bridges and tunnels in and out?

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#24

Post by bob_theslob646 »

nwah1 wrote: post #7

Congestion pricing is one of the most economically literate ways to improve traffic, and those funds can be used to improve infrastructure. It isn't so different from surge pricing in ridesharing apps. There is a narrowmindedness on the part of opponents of both congestion pricing and surge pricing, because they are ignoring the obvious point that if they weren't paying the fees they'd be paying in terms of time. Not…

Not disagreeing with you about the economic point, but will kindly disagree with you in terms of spending.

Let's just say New York does not have a great history of spending on infrastructure.

A recent New York Times piece, mentioned that the price of labor on infrastructure projects is 5 times more expensive then anywhere else in the world.

It just blows my mind that people in the NYC area are willing to put up with that type of congestion.

Doesn't Sidewalk Labs( alphabet company) have an office in Manhattan? Where are they in terms of solving traffic problems?

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#25

Post by lotsofpulp »

jimmaswell wrote: post #14
lotsofpulp wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Freezing temperatures, salt, underground infrastructure, and large amounts of traffic increase costs tremendously. Additionally, sometimes the infrastructure cannot handle the demand, therefore demand has to be reduced, and the easiest (and maybe most optimal way for society) is to implement tolls.

Large amounts of traffic means more tolls collected. They could get by fine on a normal toll amount. $15 is indefensible. Why is the answer "screw the poor"?

I am not knowledgeable about the costs of roadwork and whatnot in NYC, so I can't speak to how much a toll should be or shouldn't be. However, there is a hard ceiling on how much capacity a network of roads can accommodate (assuming you want it to keep moving at a reasonable pace), so a toll can help in reducing the demand. I'm not sure how much a toll would have to be to reduce demand, but I can see many of the drivers in NYC being unphased by $15 (I'm not sure of the specifics of the toll plan, if it's for a certain number of hours or every time you enter and exit, etc).

Edit: "screw the poor" always happens when you have a limited quantity of the desired product/service. In this case, the allocation is based on how much money you have.

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#26

Post by kageneko »

liveoneggs wrote: post #8

a friend was once visiting me in manhattan and decided to drive. He came over on the george washington bridge ($15 toll), missed his turn to my block and ended up getting turned around and going over to brooklyn (tunnel, of course: $8.50 toll), realized he was in the wrong place and turned around ($8.50 back through the tunnel). This, of course, was after driving up from Virginia via I-95, which has its own $20+ wort…

Oh, we needed the money. :( I live on the OTP on the east side, so GA400 toll didn't hit me. There was a political promise to end the toll when the improvements on 400 were finished. Initially, the DOT wanted to keep the toll booths open to pay for additional improvements (GA400-I285 interchange, expansion of GA400, etc.) but the cries of broken promises ended that plan.

Let us not forget the congestion pricing for the express lanes on I85. The price kept going down and down during the first few months it was around. I seem to recall plans to use congestion pricing for further I75 and GA400 expansions.

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#27

Post by madcaptenor »

liveoneggs wrote: post #8

a friend was once visiting me in manhattan and decided to drive. He came over on the george washington bridge ($15 toll), missed his turn to my block and ended up getting turned around and going over to brooklyn (tunnel, of course: $8.50 toll), realized he was in the wrong place and turned around ($8.50 back through the tunnel). This, of course, was after driving up from Virginia via I-95, which has its own $20+ wort…

I'm pretty sure Atlanta could use the money. At the very least we could use it to buy salt and plows so that the city doesn't close down for two days after an inch of snow.

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#28

Post by baldfat »

nwah1 wrote: post #7

Congestion pricing is one of the most economically literate ways to improve traffic, and those funds can be used to improve infrastructure. It isn't so different from surge pricing in ridesharing apps. There is a narrowmindedness on the part of opponents of both congestion pricing and surge pricing, because they are ignoring the obvious point that if they weren't paying the fees they'd be paying in terms of time. Not…

The only issue is when I had to run to Manhattan I jumped in my car and went either into a parking lot or just dropped something off. Still get charged for the Bridge Fees of $15!!!

$15 to use the GWB and anything going to Long Island or NJ is ridiculous and Verrizano is $17 and that is the the highest cost for a bridge in the nation. GWB is a major interstate and you have to swing up to the Tapanzee or go further north Fishkill Bridge to get lower fees.

Now add the $11 fee and my cost is $26 just to drive to one place in Manhattan.

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#29

Post by madcaptenor »

kageneko wrote: post #26
liveoneggs wrote: post #8

a friend was once visiting me in manhattan and decided to drive. He came over on the george washington bridge ($15 toll), missed his turn to my block and ended up getting turned around and going over to brooklyn (tunnel, of course: $8.50 toll), realized he was in the wrong place and turned around ($8.50 back through the tunnel). This, of course, was after driving up from Virginia via I-95, which has its own $20+ wort…

Oh, we needed the money. :( I live on the OTP on the east side, so GA400 toll didn't hit me. There was a political promise to end the toll when the improvements on 400 were finished. Initially, the DOT wanted to keep the toll booths open to pay for additional improvements (GA400-I285 interchange, expansion of GA400, etc.) but the cries of broken promises ended that plan. Let us not forget the congestion pricing for t…

I think I've also heard plans for congestion pricing on express lanes on 285 (not sure of the extent of those - I want to say between 75 and 85 on the north side?)

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#30

Post by freehunter »

jimmaswell wrote: post #23
matchbok wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The millions of people who do live in NYC thank you. The toll is working as expected.

So you'd rather have less people spend money at your establishments and visit tourist destinations (which is surely more than $15 spent per trip per vehicle). Whatever you say. Why not go full enclave and get rid of all bridges and tunnels in and out?

If New York was hurting for tourists and customers, they'd lower the toll. The defense for what people are calling "indefensible" is that enough people pay the toll that traffic is still a nightmare. If it was indefensible, no one would pay it.
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