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Re: undefined

#51

Post by lubernator »

SnowProblem wrote: post #47
raguuu wrote: post #3

I can tell you that the tactics used by so called justice seekers are exactly the same we had in my dear soviet union. I don't know where it is heading but because America decides the course if the western civilization, I feel uncomfortable. Peterson is doing great work. I hope he can handle the pressure.

Can you expand on this at all? Your comment fascinated me, and I’m now very curious about what the climate was like in the Soviet Union. Any book or movie recommendations?

Society was saturated with a paranoia of not appearing to think or act the wrong way. Any accusation of having ideas that could qualify of being outside the acceptable boundaries was very dangerous. The accusations were often pulled out of thin air to neutralise intellectuals, political opponents, or disliked people in general. Effectively. That type of mentality is partly what inspired wrongthink in Orwel's "1984".

If you would like to experience what the atmosphere was like living in the Soviet Union, a good book to read is Peterson's often recommended "The Gulag archipelago".

Re: undefined

#53

Post by supreme_sublime »

dennisgorelik wrote: post #45
Turing_Machine wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. The interviewer's style is something akin to this: Peterson: "Since they are human beings, women are mortal." Interviewer: "So you're saying that all women should be murdered." That is only a slight exaggeration of what she was doing. He would say something, then she would respond with "So you're saying...(some hot-button statement totally unrelated to what he actually said)". I give him a lot of credit for rema…

Cathy Newman allowed Peterson to answer to all of her intentional misinterpretations. Peterson clearly enjoyed that intellectually challenging interview.

"Intellectually challenging" that wasn't intellectually challenging for him in the slightest. Having someone constantly misrepresent you isn't "challenging". Challenging is when someone understands what you are saying, follows your line of logic and arrives at a conclusion you weren't expecting. He simply knew he was interacting with a person who bought into a certain worldview and figured the best way to show her how she was wrong was by being a bit light hearted, but showing he wasn't a pushover either.

Re: undefined

#54

Post by supreme_sublime »

SnowProblem wrote: post #47
raguuu wrote: post #3

I can tell you that the tactics used by so called justice seekers are exactly the same we had in my dear soviet union. I don't know where it is heading but because America decides the course if the western civilization, I feel uncomfortable. Peterson is doing great work. I hope he can handle the pressure.

Can you expand on this at all? Your comment fascinated me, and I’m now very curious about what the climate was like in the Soviet Union. Any book or movie recommendations?

Something that would probably be good to read (or listen to) is The Gulag Archipelago. I haven't gotten through it yet. But a great story early on is one about a speech Stalin gave.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOP0HQUTSo0 This video has a pretty good summary of the story.

Re: undefined

#55

Post by pas »

quantumofmalice wrote: post #36

I have become effectively alt-right (it is complicated, but for HN purposes it suffices), from a libertarian conservative, in the last two years, specifically because of behavior like that of this interviewer. I no longer think it is possible to engage in dialog with people who think dialog is not possible. The punch-a-nazi meme, its acceptance across my social circles (including HN), the our-violence-is-speech-their…

What's your view on the prevalence of unsupported prejudice (racism, xenophobia, etc)?

I don't really understand why SJW groups don't sue people for their racist/"nazist" remarks, other than it's expensive.

There are some famous cases https://www.cnet.com/news/taking-trolls-to-court-lawsuit-tar... , but probably SJWs want instant gratification, hence the punching.

That doesn't make it acceptable, mostly because it's not even funny. ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpyBPwCmfn0 )

> I no longer think it is possible to engage in dialog with people who think dialog is not possible.

Yes, some people seem to be completely lost.

Re: undefined

#56

Post by throwaway294712 »

SnowProblem wrote: post #47
raguuu wrote: post #3

I can tell you that the tactics used by so called justice seekers are exactly the same we had in my dear soviet union. I don't know where it is heading but because America decides the course if the western civilization, I feel uncomfortable. Peterson is doing great work. I hope he can handle the pressure.

Can you expand on this at all? Your comment fascinated me, and I’m now very curious about what the climate was like in the Soviet Union. Any book or movie recommendations?

One of the many propaganda topics during the civil war was that the Russian Empire was oppressing many minor ethnicities and cultures. They called the Russian culture velikoderzhavny (a kind of “imperial”) chauvinism. And the USSR was made to unite all ethnicities and make everyone equal. Everyone except Russians. Bolsheviks worked hard to build a new culture without that ”imperial culture”. So they killed or imprisoned many scientists or educated people born in the Empire, tried to build new culture, etc. The main personal trait of those activists was the absolute moral superiority over “imperial oppressors”, which was especially useful during tortures and mass executions — they were exterminating a class, not individuals, so there were nothing personal in murders (this is a citation of Martin Latsis [1]).

Of the post civil war USSR I can recall one thing that was common. One could only have a successful career provided that they was “clean”: non educated parents, no bourgeois relatives in the past, relatives helping build the communism (e.g. in charge of mass executions).

So, the “clear” understanding of what’s good and what’s evil together with the moral superiority make justice trivial.

P.S. Throwaway for obvious reasons.

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Latsis

Re: undefined

#57

Post by quantumofmalice »

pas wrote: post #55
quantumofmalice wrote: post #36

I have become effectively alt-right (it is complicated, but for HN purposes it suffices), from a libertarian conservative, in the last two years, specifically because of behavior like that of this interviewer. I no longer think it is possible to engage in dialog with people who think dialog is not possible. The punch-a-nazi meme, its acceptance across my social circles (including HN), the our-violence-is-speech-their…

What's your view on the prevalence of unsupported prejudice (racism, xenophobia, etc)? I don't really understand why SJW groups don't sue people for their racist/"nazist" remarks, other than it's expensive. There are some famous cases https://www.cnet.com/news/taking-trolls-to-court-lawsuit-tar... , but probably SJWs want instant gratification, hence the punching. That doesn't make it acceptable, mostly because it's…

> What's your view on the prevalence of unsupported prejudice

I don't like the careless negativity about non-european people that you see on the alt-right, but I see much more casual negativity towards europeans on the left that goes uncommented on. Broadly I'm coming to agree with Greg Johnson: the best way for peoples to get along is for each people to have their own sovereign country, and I don't think that has to come from a place of viciousness. I view european people the same as I view the japanese, israelis or nigerians: they deserve their own countries and spaces to live the way they see fit.

Re: undefined

#58

Post by su30mki117 »

jules wrote: post #27
throwaway1748 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This interview really demonstrates the style of argumentation you see around these topics, just dialed up to 11. Practitioners of this form of argument intentionally mis-represent the other side to form a strawman argument. This works exceptionally well on Twitter, where someone quote-tweets their adversary, intentionally warping their words with the intention to shame. Some people have called this tactic "dunking on…

I don't think that tactic works poorly in that format at all, it's just that this person is incredibly good at defending against it. Very few people could withstand such an interview.

Jordan Peterson might have defended well compared to an average person, but I was still surprised too see him uncomfortable and expending extra energy to answer the questions than what I expected. Those were hard questions, but he would have surely expected those kind of questions before going to the interview. He did not look well prepared, and some of his answers lacked the clarity and punch which we can usually see in his youtube lectures.

Re: undefined

#59

Post by raguuu »

throwaway294712 wrote: post #56
SnowProblem wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you expand on this at all? Your comment fascinated me, and I’m now very curious about what the climate was like in the Soviet Union. Any book or movie recommendations?

One of the many propaganda topics during the civil war was that the Russian Empire was oppressing many minor ethnicities and cultures. They called the Russian culture velikoderzhavny (a kind of “imperial”) chauvinism. And the USSR was made to unite all ethnicities and make everyone equal. Everyone except Russians. Bolsheviks worked hard to build a new culture without that ”imperial culture”. So they killed or impriso…

The fact that you need a throwaway to state the obvious is telling. There is no discussion anymore. Attack other people's opinions relentlessly, but have an actual honest discussion without losing your job and life.

Re: undefined

#60

Post by nicolashahn »

Yetanfou wrote: post #43
harshreality wrote: post #28

Threads like this getting buried on HN are a symptom of the ideological intolerance and echo-chamber problems that lead to people like the interviewer never having encountered Peterson's ideas before.

The solution to that problem can be found in accessing HN through the RSS feed. This way you get to see everything that is posted (to the feed) without the bias effect of the high-and-low game of the front page ranking. This actually goes for all news, not just HN. Accessing it through a feed reader makes it possible to see other interesting behaviour, e.g. news outlets quickly correcting article headings or actually…

Another method I was just informed of - https://hckrnews.com apparently shows flagged posts
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