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CIA rendition flights from rustic North Carolina called to account by citizens

theguardian.com

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Re: CIA rendition flights from rustic North Carolina called to account by citizens

#141

Post by _delirium »

ainiriand wrote: post #123
_delirium wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dunno, if you look at specifically this kind of intelligence cooperation with "dirty" states' intelligence agencies (Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Pakistan, etc.), I've found people in "conservative" rural areas to be almost uniformly against it, even if you wouldn't be able to tell that from how their political representatives vote. I mean, to be fair, most people I've met in any location of any politics aren't really happ…

I agree. It looks to me that this is just the case of the CIA operating completely out of control. USA is not to blame, the president is not to blame, and the citizens are not to blame.

I'm not sure I'd let the presidents off the hook. It's not entirely clear because much information isn't public, but from what is public it appears likely that at least Bill Clinton and George W. Bush authorized at least some cases of 'extraordinary rendition'.

Re: CIA rendition flights from rustic North Carolina called to account by citizens

#142

Post by baud147258 »

dandare wrote: post #122
rdtsc wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Obama administration basically stopped trying to capture people alive to interrogate them and instead just sent drone based missiles to just kill anyone suspected of terrorism. Not only that but after receiving a Nobel Peace Prize he proceeded to engage in drone warfare. Just in 2016 he dropped more then 20k bombs, in countries which we were not even at war with. Many in Africa. It was surprising how little flak he…

> Anyone remember how he promised to close Guantanamo? A European here, I was under the impression he sincerely tried to close Guantanamo but failed because of GOP controlled house and senate. Could he have done more?

European here too. I thought another problem with closing Guantanamo was what to do with the prisoners.

Re: CIA rendition flights from rustic North Carolina called to account by citizens

#143

Post by crankylinuxuser »

EliRivers wrote: post #121
crankylinuxuser wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, it makes a great deal of sense in using "Muslim Ban". You 'otherize' them, you set them up against "You", and then you discriminate against them because they hate and want violence against you. It's also hard to go against this, as we've been at war with the Middle East since Desert Storm - only a ceasefire was called. And then later add on extremist moslems during September 11 attacks, and yeah.. It's a perfec…

Sets a very useful precedent too, opening the door for bringing back Roman Catholic bans.

True that, but they're still Christians as far as R's are concerned. Yeah, they do have some weird radical views like the Pope - but those can be fixed.

The people in the middle east worship a "psychotic man with a hairy mole" (aka: Mohamed). I learned that on WIBC, 1070KHz after a multitude of interviews that Mike Pence hosted back in the mid 90's with "religion intellectuals". I was in my mid teens during that.. should have recorded him talking about all this, but I'm sure the radio studio has recordings as well.

And back to the main issue, "Otherization" allows targeting anyone they don't want. And this seems to be drifting hard to neo-nazism. I know the people on Daily Stormer and similar groups are rather happy.

Re: CIA rendition flights from rustic North Carolina called to account by citizens

#144

Post by pbhjpbhj »

IIAOPSW wrote: post #4

That's real optimistic of the Guardian but somehow I doubt there's all that much grass roots support against rendition flights. We live in an age where "Muslim ban" sounds like appropriate policy to about half the population. In Democracy the people get the government they deserve. Guess we really don't deserve human rights and habeus corpus.

If I say my perfect person is Joseph Kony (a North African warlord; who created a religion of a sincretic mix of animism, Christianity, and Islam) and that I'm going to follow his example as closely as I can - please let me in to your country. Why would you ever say yes?

If you were to suggest stopping all people who admitted to idolising Kony from entering the country it would seem reasonable, no?

Re: CIA rendition flights from rustic North Carolina called to account by citizens

#145

Post by tclancy »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #144
IIAOPSW wrote: post #4

That's real optimistic of the Guardian but somehow I doubt there's all that much grass roots support against rendition flights. We live in an age where "Muslim ban" sounds like appropriate policy to about half the population. In Democracy the people get the government they deserve. Guess we really don't deserve human rights and habeus corpus.

If I say my perfect person is Joseph Kony (a North African warlord; who created a religion of a sincretic mix of animism, Christianity, and Islam) and that I'm going to follow his example as closely as I can - please let me in to your country. Why would you ever say yes? If you were to suggest stopping all people who admitted to idolising Kony from entering the country it would seem reasonable, no?

Arguing from the specific to the generic is an obvious logical fallacy and a darn slippery slope unless you also want to kick all Christians out a country based on the behavior of a small number of infamous ones.

Re: CIA rendition flights from rustic North Carolina called to account by citizens

#146

Post by EvanAnderson »

matt4077 wrote: post #133
rdtsc wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I forgot where I read it, maybe on the Southern Poverty Law Center's site, but I could be wrong, but they were talking about a similar thing -- how to convince people to change their mind. The example was about how to change people's opinion in regard to transgender people. The idea was similar -- beating them on the head with 140-character sarcastic blurbs, showing stats and facts, insulting etc, just doesn't work.…

This is very similar to a famous study. Where door-to-door canvassing was shown to be very powerful to change people‘s mind. I believe it was California’s prop 8. Unfortunately, that study turned out to be completely falsified. But, in anotothef twist, the underlying hypothesis may indeed appear to have some merit—there are a few studies now underway. (Sorry for not including links—on mobile right nowk

This American Life had a good episode about the study you're talking about being discredited: https://www.thisamericanlife.org/584/for-your-reconsideratio...

There is also a transcript available, too: https://www.thisamericanlife.org/584/transcript

Re: CIA rendition flights from rustic North Carolina called to account by citizens

#147

Post by oldsklgdfth »

This may seem like a naive question, but what is the point of rendition flights?

Just to get around constitutional rights? Seems like with all that money and effort you could just do it here.

EDIT: I don't condone torture. I think it's sad the way we treat each other.

Re: CIA rendition flights from rustic North Carolina called to account by citizens

#148

Post by pbhjpbhj »

tclancy wrote: post #145
pbhjpbhj wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I say my perfect person is Joseph Kony (a North African warlord; who created a religion of a sincretic mix of animism, Christianity, and Islam) and that I'm going to follow his example as closely as I can - please let me in to your country. Why would you ever say yes? If you were to suggest stopping all people who admitted to idolising Kony from entering the country it would seem reasonable, no?

Arguing from the specific to the generic is an obvious logical fallacy and a darn slippery slope unless you also want to kick all Christians out a country based on the behavior of a small number of infamous ones.

Isn't the policy about immigration?

I'm talking about chosen ideological association. Do Christians, as a group, claim an ideology that demands violent oppression? Yes the OT has stories of it, but Jesus - whom Christians claim to follow (cf. Gandhi) stood for equality and peaceful resistance. As far as anyone knows Jesus didn't kill anyone, nor call for violence against anyone; the opposite in fact. Yes, plenty of Christians are murderous and immoral.

If the leader of group A says kill people who won't join our group, or tax them heavily, your choice. And leader of group B says give everyone tea and cake if they want it. You're saying that if an adherent of group B happens to kill someone you should treat group B the same as group A. I say that's wrong.

To be specific again, this works for the KKK to, or people idolising Hitler, or ... if they admit that and want entry it seems good ground on which to refuse; even if that person doesn't ever intend to act on the ideology, or is unlikely too as far as can be established.

(Aside, there's no fallacy in establishing general rules based on specifics, unless scientific method is fallacious; even if it were fallacious the Fallacy Fallacy applies, ie fallacies don't indicate the truth value of any particular proposition).

Re: CIA rendition flights from rustic North Carolina called to account by citizens

#149

Post by frgtpsswrdlame »

nickysielicki wrote: post #47
IIAOPSW wrote: post #4

That's real optimistic of the Guardian but somehow I doubt there's all that much grass roots support against rendition flights. We live in an age where "Muslim ban" sounds like appropriate policy to about half the population. In Democracy the people get the government they deserve. Guess we really don't deserve human rights and habeus corpus.

It's cheap of you to try to conflate the issue of torturing prisoners with the issue of restrictions on immigration. It is not inconsistent to support immigration restrictions on countries with Muslim extremists while simultaneously being against the torture of prisoners. You're tapping into identity politics.

>with the issue of restrictions on immigration.

It's cheap of you to throw a muslim ban into the immigration bucket and not into the religious freedom bucket.

Re: CIA rendition flights from rustic North Carolina called to account by citizens

#150

Post by pc86 »

oldsklgdfth wrote: post #147

This may seem like a naive question, but what is the point of rendition flights? Just to get around constitutional rights? Seems like with all that money and effort you could just do it here. EDIT: I don't condone torture. I think it's sad the way we treat each other.

Yes, "just" to get around constitutional rights. The constitution applies to everyone within the United States, citizen or otherwise. Removing them from US soil simplifies the equation somewhat.
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