Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Atlas Shrugged film to be released in 2011

imdb.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

21–30 of 87 posts

Re: Atlas Shrugged film to be released in 2011

#21

Post by lzw »

grandalf wrote: post #16
jbooth wrote: post #3

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs."

Note that most people who aren't fans of Atlas Shrugged resort to making dumb, belittling jokes about it rather than articulating an argument. The internet is full of parodies, etc., but there really aren't many people who dislike the book and are also capable of persuasively arguing against it without resorting to religious authority or mocking sneers (or both). Why? Probably because most people haven't read the boo…

When I first read the book, I started looking for criticism to see if I'd been tricked, or if she'd played on my emotions to make me think something was reasonable or logical that wasn't.

I have found some obscure philosophical arguments that seemed to be based on a misunderstanding or different interpretation, or making a mountain out of what I think is a molehill. But those are in the minority.

Almost all the criticism I've found seems to take a very shallow, "soundbite" perspective. eg: to presume that the book opposes charity, advocates meanness or evil, etc.

Near as I can tell, there is a huge cult who hates Ayn Rand and Atlas Shrugged, and the reason seems to be that her book clearly and logically demolishes the philosophy they espouse.

They cannot address it honestly because that would bring up the actual issues in their philosophy and likely many people would see that Atlas Shrugged shows them to be fallacious.

So, instead, they attack her with ad hominem and derision and refuse to be honest about what the book actually said.

Re: Atlas Shrugged film to be released in 2011

#22

Post by jbooth »

grandalf wrote: post #19
jbooth wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ecch. Let's stick with the Lord of the Rings comparison. If Ayn Rand wrote it, Aragorn and Gandalf would have just hopped the first boat west and let the world fend for itself, because hey, what's the world done for them? If you were born in America with access to a good education, you're in the luckiest 1% of anyone who ever lived anywhere, and that's all before your 10th birthday. The message of Atlas Shrugged, tha…

Not sure where you're getting that. Atlas Shrugged addresses the morality of capitalism. If you want to criticize it, you should be clear what you're criticizing. You seem to have an axe to grind with some subset of Americans, but I'm not sure how that relates to Atlas Shrugged. In my opinion, legitimate criticism would take the form of an argument against capitalism or an argument that shows how some other economic…

It addresses the morality of crybabies. The major theme of the book is that these titans of industry were such a bunch of whiners who didn't get enough respect and love from people, so they peaced out to show the world who was really important.

Guess what? If you do that, I'll just take your job. 4 weeks of transition and we'll be rolling again.

That's called being the boss. You're accountable and the people who are smaller than you can snipe, you can be bigger than that or you can be one of them.

I find it hard to believe that anybody who's actually had any responsibility in their life would ever get behind taking your ball and going home to spite people.

Re: Atlas Shrugged film to be released in 2011

#23

Post by AmberShah »

lzw wrote: post #21
grandalf wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note that most people who aren't fans of Atlas Shrugged resort to making dumb, belittling jokes about it rather than articulating an argument. The internet is full of parodies, etc., but there really aren't many people who dislike the book and are also capable of persuasively arguing against it without resorting to religious authority or mocking sneers (or both). Why? Probably because most people haven't read the boo…

When I first read the book, I started looking for criticism to see if I'd been tricked, or if she'd played on my emotions to make me think something was reasonable or logical that wasn't. I have found some obscure philosophical arguments that seemed to be based on a misunderstanding or different interpretation, or making a mountain out of what I think is a molehill. But those are in the minority. Almost all the criti…

It's actually a tribute to Ayn Rand that this long after the book was written, it still espouses such strong praise and such strong criticism.

Re: Atlas Shrugged film to be released in 2011

#24

Post by secretasiandan »

grandalf wrote: post #16
jbooth wrote: post #3

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs."

Note that most people who aren't fans of Atlas Shrugged resort to making dumb, belittling jokes about it rather than articulating an argument. The internet is full of parodies, etc., but there really aren't many people who dislike the book and are also capable of persuasively arguing against it without resorting to religious authority or mocking sneers (or both). Why? Probably because most people haven't read the boo…

This phenomenon isn't isolated to Ayn Rand/Objectivism. And it doesn't occur with Objectivism because Atlas Shrugged/The Fountainhead are hard reads.

Its because most people don't spend time objectively studying topics/philosophies they don't have a positive bias towards.

Re: Atlas Shrugged film to be released in 2011

#25

Post by msie »

grandalf wrote: post #16
jbooth wrote: post #3

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs."

Note that most people who aren't fans of Atlas Shrugged resort to making dumb, belittling jokes about it rather than articulating an argument. The internet is full of parodies, etc., but there really aren't many people who dislike the book and are also capable of persuasively arguing against it without resorting to religious authority or mocking sneers (or both). Why? Probably because most people haven't read the boo…

On the other hand, many of her proponents probably haven't read the book either so it sort of evens out.

Re: Atlas Shrugged film to be released in 2011

#26

Post by yummyfajitas »

grandalf wrote: post #16
jbooth wrote: post #3

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs."

Note that most people who aren't fans of Atlas Shrugged resort to making dumb, belittling jokes about it rather than articulating an argument. The internet is full of parodies, etc., but there really aren't many people who dislike the book and are also capable of persuasively arguing against it without resorting to religious authority or mocking sneers (or both). Why? Probably because most people haven't read the boo…

True, though there is a perfectly good criticism to make - Rand is simply incorrect when she claims you can use reason to derive morality (either her specific kind, or any kind).

You can use reason to evaluate actions based on moral principles of low complexity, but you simply can't derive those principles. In terms of formal logic, you need at least one true statement about the morality predicate in order to derive other true statements about it, you can't start from nothing.

Re: Atlas Shrugged film to be released in 2011

#27

Post by jbooth »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #17
jbooth wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ecch. Let's stick with the Lord of the Rings comparison. If Ayn Rand wrote it, Aragorn and Gandalf would have just hopped the first boat west and let the world fend for itself, because hey, what's the world done for them? If you were born in America with access to a good education, you're in the luckiest 1% of anyone who ever lived anywhere, and that's all before your 10th birthday. The message of Atlas Shrugged, tha…

The message of Atlas Shrugged, that these people are 100% self-made and the world owes them something for their hard work... As I understood it, the message of Atlas Shrugged is that no one owes anyone else anything except by voluntary agreement. The only people who owe Dagny anything are her passengers, and they owe her only train fare. (The only exception being that everyone owes a small amount of tax money to pay…

Well, first off, yeah, so if you're born into the situation that I described above (which I was and I'm pretty most HNers were), I think it's pretty entitled and childish to pretend that your accomplishments are yours alone and you have no obligation to the society that produced you. But sure, technically, you don't legally owe anybody anything.

Second off -- if you're the boss, you take responsibility. Any CEO who wants to "go galt" can go right ahead -- they'll be replaced easily enough. There's a fundamental misunderstanding about capitalism -- someone's always ready to replace you. If you're the type of guy to whine about not being appreciated and "go galt" to teach people a lesson, you probably didn't deserve responsibility in the first place -- responsibility is all about being under appreciated.

Re: Atlas Shrugged film to be released in 2011

#29

Post by brg »

jbooth wrote: post #22
grandalf wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure where you're getting that. Atlas Shrugged addresses the morality of capitalism. If you want to criticize it, you should be clear what you're criticizing. You seem to have an axe to grind with some subset of Americans, but I'm not sure how that relates to Atlas Shrugged. In my opinion, legitimate criticism would take the form of an argument against capitalism or an argument that shows how some other economic…

It addresses the morality of crybabies. The major theme of the book is that these titans of industry were such a bunch of whiners who didn't get enough respect and love from people, so they peaced out to show the world who was really important. Guess what? If you do that, I'll just take your job. 4 weeks of transition and we'll be rolling again. That's called being the boss. You're accountable and the people who are…

You missed or ignore a good portion of the book. No hero of the book was a crybaby; no one whined to their parents, friends, or authorities to get their way. Every hero of the book took it upon them self to better their own situation at the expense of no one else. They saw it was full of crybabies, and removed themselves by their own volition.

I can't see why anyone has a problem with someone else just asking to be left alone.

Re: Atlas Shrugged film to be released in 2011

#30

Post by grandalf »

jbooth wrote: post #22
grandalf wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure where you're getting that. Atlas Shrugged addresses the morality of capitalism. If you want to criticize it, you should be clear what you're criticizing. You seem to have an axe to grind with some subset of Americans, but I'm not sure how that relates to Atlas Shrugged. In my opinion, legitimate criticism would take the form of an argument against capitalism or an argument that shows how some other economic…

It addresses the morality of crybabies. The major theme of the book is that these titans of industry were such a bunch of whiners who didn't get enough respect and love from people, so they peaced out to show the world who was really important. Guess what? If you do that, I'll just take your job. 4 weeks of transition and we'll be rolling again. That's called being the boss. You're accountable and the people who are…

You seem to think that someone whose passion is business (in the case of Atlas Shrugged mechanical engineering) should somehow feel a strong obligation to create on behalf of others.

Nobody expects this of painters, poets, or writers because it is understood that their creative acts are done with love and personal importance.

But creation is creation, whether it's an alloy or a painting or a poem. Rand's point was that it is the same driving force that moves humanity forward.

The question is whether you think of it as something that should be coveted and respected (like, say, the musings of a Poet) or if you simply look at the distribution of wealth and declare that all that is unimportant, that the creative person should care more about helping others than about pursuing his/her work.

The point of the book was not to suggest that people leave, but to show how the morality described in the book could stand alone as first principles of an improved society. The book is a novel of ideas and not (as you seem to have taken it) as a literal prescription for how individuals in society should act.

Post reply on HN