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Getting free of toxic tech culture

blog.valerieaurora.org

281–290 of 420 posts

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#281
post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you mind me asking what languages/stack you're currently working with? Just out of curiosity.

I'm focused more on infrastructure than software engineering lately: AWS/CloudFormation, but I still write some Python/NodeJS/Bash, mostly infrastructure glue rather than actual apps. The key to keeping yourself relevant is understanding the big picture, and learning stuff that is outside your area of expertise. For example, I started as a network engineer, but got into UNIX because I wanted to know how the provision…

Would you consider yourself to be a specialist in cloud storage/infrastructure? Anecdotally the people in their 40's--60's who continue to find employment as individual contributor software engineer seem to be specialists in a particular field.

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#282
I recall being told on a surprisingly regular basis, as a nerdy white boy in the '90s, that I could be "the next Bill Gates". In light of the debate over bias in tech, I wonder how many girls and people of color got that same message. In one sense it's an incredibly small and narrow thing, but it clearly didn't happen in a vacuum.

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#283
post #21

>What is toxic tech culture? Toxic tech cultures are those that demean and devalue you as holistic, multifaceted human beings. Toxic tech cultures are those that prioritize profits and growth over human and societal well being. Toxic tech cultures are those that treat you as replaceable cogs within a system of constant churn and burnout. has there been any factory floor, farm, private or government office where thing…

I feel like some of this may be more pronounced in areas like SV. Specifically, areas of the highest competition. The personality traits that correlate most strongly with success are: high conscientiousness, high stress tolerance, and low agreeableness. Of course it makes sense that the people in the areas of stiffest competition in tech are in an environment of high stress and are generally really disagreeable to be around. This is going to be the case at the top of any field with stiff competition.

I live in a 2nd tier city (not NY, SF, LA, etc) and these depictions of the "tech industry" are unfamiliar to me. Sure, there's the odd asshole, but those are everywhere. I feel like people around SV and other high competition big cities are generalizing about the industry in a way that doesn't reflect my day to day life.

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#284
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A) With respect, your experience and the author's experience may vary, for a variety of reasons, so I'm not sure it makes sense to pit one set of experiences against another, so to speak. B) Would you be willing to clarify what was toxic about your experience with SV startups as you described? C) Realistically, without denying the problems which probably do exist with "intersectionaly identity politics", etc, it seem…

The answer is and always has been to judge people by the output of their work and nothing else. As soon as you bring identity politics into to equation, you’ve lost because many people will (rightly) take attacks on white people and men as racist and sexist respectively.

A problem with identity politics is that people make assumptions about which groups other people should identify with. There is nothing right about taking an attack on a group of people, especially when the groups are based on their genetics.

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This second premise, that Google hires under qualified candidates of they're diverse, is also incorrect. He claimed that Google made the false negative rate higher for non-diverse candidates. Here's the relevant quote: > "Hiring practices which can effectively lower the bar for 'diversity' candidates by decreasing the false negative rate. In other words the bar was only lowered in the sense that diverse candidates di…

Ah, good point, I do remember that false negative bit. That was actually the first thing that jumped out at me, because it seems incredibly implausible and ridiculous! Here's why I think he's full of shit on that one. Reducing the false negative rate without lowering the bar is an unambiguous positive. He's asking me to believe that Google invented a better interviewing process that will save them tons of time and mo…

It's not implausible and ridiculous. In fact, in my experience it's one of the most common methods of increasing diversity. Here's a run-down of what my company does (my past workplaces have had similar policies):

* Applications of diverse candidates are accepted from non-traditional backgrounds. In this context, "non-tradition" means majoring in a non-tech field or attended a coding boot camp of some sorts (this applies for non-experienced candidates. For experienced candidates it doesn't matter what their educational background is).

* For diverse candidates, they get two tries at passing the phone screen.

* That said, all candidates go through the same on-site interview loop. The on-site is where the actual evaluation of skills and decision making process is made. This process is not made with any bearing on the candidate's diversity status.

This is a clear example of lowering the false negative rate without lowering the quality of accepted diverse candidates. The false negative rate is lowered by having a more lenient selecting in the first stages. However it's worth noting that these only determine if the candidate move on to the stage where the actual evaluation of skill occurs. The phone screens and resume reviews aren't reliable enough signals for us to make decisions so we only use them to determine the set of candidates that move on the to last stage. Some would point out that this increases the number of false positives for diversity candidates, but that's simply by increasing the total number of diverse candidates. It does not affect the false positive rate. And

The reason why we don't do this for all candidates is because of cost. There's a substantial cost to having full time engineers doing interviews. We already spend ~6 hours a week doing interviews and writing feedback. We couldn't deal with the increased load if we used the first and second points on all candidates. Second, we also want to have larger share of diverse employees in tech positions. Even if people think it's just for better public perception, that's still a tangible and significant benefit.

For what it's worth I think it's perfectly fine way of improving the chances of diverse candidates getting offers. That said, saying that this system is discriminating by decreasing the false negative rate for diverse candidates is an unambiguously true statement and I would object to any of my co-workers being fired for sayings as such.

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#286
post #44

I predict people will claim "our culture isn't that toxic. Some of those things happen, but they don't bother me much." If any non-zero subset of reasonable people are so offended by a behavior that they'd leave the industry because of it, we have to cut it out. So don't ask "would this bother me?" Ask "would it bother someone?" And since you can't predict this from inside your head, you have to rely on firsthand acc…

Perhaps ask "why does something that bothers others not bother me" as well. The answer can be uncomfortable, but enlightening and ultimately liberating.

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#287
post #44

I predict people will claim "our culture isn't that toxic. Some of those things happen, but they don't bother me much." If any non-zero subset of reasonable people are so offended by a behavior that they'd leave the industry because of it, we have to cut it out. So don't ask "would this bother me?" Ask "would it bother someone?" And since you can't predict this from inside your head, you have to rely on firsthand acc…

If I actually abstained from all things that “would bother someone” I would never even be able to leave the house. No matter what you do, I guarantee that there is someone, somewhere, who will be gravely offended by it. This doesn’t even include the people who are out there actively looking for things to take offense to. Trying to please everyone is not a winnable game.

So true. In addition, once they see that you're so accommodating they'll adapt by inventing new offenses.

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He argues that biology is, in part, a cause for different preferences and choices between men and women. At no point did he claim any superiority of ability. "X is worse at Y" is not at all the same thing as "X, on average, will choose to do Y at a smaller rate." Also, I find the notion that people who choose to not work in tech or work smaller hours are somehow inferior quite demeaning. My brother wasn't very intere…

I don't agree with your interpretation of the memo, however, you definitely touch on a challenging point -- what was actually being said? I don't entirely agree with this article I found either, it actually skews more to your point of view, however it was quite interesting. The author's description of the challenge the Damor memo touched upon: "What we are dealing with here is the problem of how we might offer possib…

> That makes sense you would find that notion demeaning. I do as well. As I said to someone else, if you took offense (which wasn't intended) from my comment, I'm sure you can understand why many people would take offense from Damor's memo :).

No, in fact this it's just the opposite. Claiming that "women are less likely to choose to work in tech" is a harmful statement is implying that those who do not work in tech are lesser. This is what I am pointing out. Those that do take offense to Damore's memo are inherently implying that people who choose not to work in tech are lesser. Otherwise it would not be an insult to say that group is less likely to choose to work in tech.

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#289

> white, male, nerds who’ve dropped out of Harvard or Stanford," Literally 99% of white, male, nerds don't fit this description. Every day in Silicon Valley people show favoritism to individuals that, for purely economic reasons , got into Stanford or Harvard. Investors that went to Stanford invest in founders that went to Stanford because their own investors (LPs) that also went to Stanford will favor them. This is…

If people would stop conflating poverty with racism, I think we'd have a better chance is solving both.

Poor people, regardless of color, have a remarkably similar experience (with education, the police, the criminal justice system), while yes, people of color are more likely to be poor - the harder we focus on race, the harder it is to fix the underlying issue, a lack of educational, and economic mobility for the poor.

Most racism (heck, most "-isms" in general), are born from a lack of familiarity with people who come from a different life background or culture than they do - if we both encourage opportunity for the poor, and encourage mixing of socioeconomic strata, the problem will melt away over 40-50 years.

The racism that will remain after solving poverty, will be of a very different nature I believe than that which exists now.

It's dangerous to fall for the trap that you can adjust for outcomes - but we can do a far better job of adjusting for inputs - or ensuring the poor have equal access to education, and economic opportunity.

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#290
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd rephrase that a little: it is not because you are a white male. It wouldn't have helped if you were a minority either: in fact that can be even harder - at least around here. But it is annoying in a special way to hear about that male privilege thing and know it means next to nothing - and still be told you should feel bad about it.

As someone who firmly believes in "that male privilege thing," people who tell you that you should feel bad about it are wrong. There's nothing wrong with privilege. It's a lot like privilege in the operating systems sense. sudo isn't a bad program because it has root privileges. The kernel doesn't need to apologize for running in a privileged CPU mode. But sudo and the kernel both have abilities that regular userspa…

minor revision >> "other programs _aren't_allowed_to_ do the same things they _are_
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