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Getting free of toxic tech culture

blog.valerieaurora.org

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Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#191

Post by kelnos »

zzzcpan wrote: post #148
ryandrake wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I actually abstained from all things that “would bother someone” I would never even be able to leave the house. No matter what you do, I guarantee that there is someone, somewhere, who will be gravely offended by it. This doesn’t even include the people who are out there actively looking for things to take offense to. Trying to please everyone is not a winnable game.

Yeah, the assumption that people leave tech because they are so offended by a behavior doesn't sound like a reasonable assumption. People have jobs because they have to work, not because they would like to do it. If they leave the industry, it's because they don't find jobs in the industry worthy enough to endure. I'm sure more would stay for better rewards.

> the assumption that people leave tech because they are so offended by a behavior doesn't sound like a reasonable assumption.

The reality is more that they are moderately to highly offended by a series of behaviors. It's usually not one single thing that someone runs into and says "that's it, I'm out", it's a long list of often smaller things that ultimately adds up to an intolerable experience.

> People have jobs because they have to work, not because they would like to do it.

Why can't we have both? Given that most of us spend the majority of our waking hours for the majority of our lives working, wouldn't we prefer to actually like what we're doing? Perhaps we'll never get there, but moving in that direction seems like a worthwhile goal.

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#192

Post by adamsea »

finnthehuman wrote: post #123
tlb wrote: post #44

I predict people will claim "our culture isn't that toxic. Some of those things happen, but they don't bother me much." If any non-zero subset of reasonable people are so offended by a behavior that they'd leave the industry because of it, we have to cut it out. So don't ask "would this bother me?" Ask "would it bother someone?" And since you can't predict this from inside your head, you have to rely on firsthand acc…

>If any non-zero subset of reasonable people are so offended by a behavior that they'd leave the industry because of it, we have to cut it out. I used to think like this. After years and years of refining my own behavior, a non-work, non-"tech" friend let it slip that my fiends though I had turned into a non-confrontational, lawyer-sounding, people-pleaser. He wasn't wrong, I had gotten in the habit of always walking…

Uber is "never-docile-enough" ?

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#193

Post by tptacek »

Aloha wrote: post #188
tptacek wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a consultant whose client portfolio used to include F500's in health, insurance, and NY finance, and whose portfolio now includes nothing but startups, and having had the pleasure of whiling away many languorous afternoons in the cube farms of those companies, I find it extraordinarily hard to believe that the average startup tech employee is "walking on eggshells" and being performatively docile compared to the d…

Having been around F500's and tech companies - one accusation of violating norms at a tech company can be a career ender - one accusation of same violation of norms at a Fortune 500, is usually deal with thru a discipline process.

You've worked at a company that had a "must wear ties to the office" requirement (yes, those still exist) and came out thinking that their employees were less "docile" than those of the median SFBA startup?

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#194

Post by bjourne »

mpweiher wrote: post #9

As usual, the actual numbers don't back up the narrative. For example, significantly more men in the study left due to unfairness than women do: 40% vs. 31%. So either women are treated more fairly or these numbers don't mean anything, yet you would never know it from the text, which is all about the horrible things that happen to women. Hmmm...

Did you really read the article? It spoke to everyone who felt that they didn't fit into the tech industry's toxic mild. Nowhere did they make it out to be a question about women.

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#195

Post by cutcss »

tptacek wrote: post #121
wcarron wrote: post #111

I think this was well written. There were a few instances where, upon first reading it, I objected. But rereading it, I thought the language used was chosen well. I have one main gripe, though: The scope limitation to tech. > "Toxic tech cultures are those that demean and devalue you as holistic, multifaceted human beings. Toxic tech cultures are those that prioritize profits and growth over human and societal well b…

In fact, it very probably is a tech-specific problem. Among the STEM fields, CS is almost uniquely imbalanced. STEM fields in general range from ~30-55% women, and those fields include things like Mathematics --- anyone who has gone to an academic cryptography workshop has probably noticed how many more women there are in the room --- which are strong proxies for CS ability. And, of course, among the professions in g…

Where did you get this idea that all professions need to be 50%/50%? Just for example 90% of nurses are female but we are as a society are OK with that right?

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#196

Post by illumin8 »

oceanghost wrote: post #8

I've written software for Intel, Nintendo, Samsung, LG, DirecTV, Applied Materials, Microsoft, and Apple to name a few. My last project was the basis for an entire business line at a 500m/yr company. I am unemployable because I'm a white male whose in his 40s, has a family, and because somehow, in this industry experience is a bad thing. It amazes me how intolerant of age and differing opinion tech culture is.

White male, 44 years old. I'm a principal engineer at a big tech company and could get a job at a moments notice paying really well any time I choose. I'm not sure ageism really exists, outside of some toxic startups with a "bro" culture, and in my experience, those are the types of places that nobody wants to work anyway.

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#197

Post by kelnos »

jrs235 wrote: post #163
doesnt_know wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can I ask what you did in your role as a manager? Where I work, even though there are some titles that have the word "manager" in, the organization refers to anyone that have people report to them as "people leaders". They are responsible for the well being of the those that report to them. If you take away the part where you are responsible for your people, what is left? Even if you take the most clinical and roboti…

>People don't turn off their emotions just because they are getting paid to perform a task !??! Isn't that what we expect professionals to do? I mean yeah professionals still have feelings and emotions but they learn to detach them from their job. Like how we expect police officers to conduct themselves... Like trained professionals.

There's a difference between acting professional and ignoring abuse because "I shouldn't be emotional at my job".

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#198

Post by ant_mc »

> Early on, Valerie realized that she unconsciously thought of literally every single job other than software engineer as “for people who weren’t good enough to be a software engineer” – and that she thought this because other software engineers had been telling her that for her entire career.

Just want to add that the "lets teach everyone to be programmers" idea that constantly gets paraded around is just another form of this. Not everyone waants to do it, not everyone is capable of doing it, and not everyone needs to do it. It comes from a place of wanting to help people, but it's still "in tech vs not in tech".

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#199

Post by tptacek »

cutcss wrote: post #195
tptacek wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In fact, it very probably is a tech-specific problem. Among the STEM fields, CS is almost uniquely imbalanced. STEM fields in general range from ~30-55% women, and those fields include things like Mathematics --- anyone who has gone to an academic cryptography workshop has probably noticed how many more women there are in the room --- which are strong proxies for CS ability. And, of course, among the professions in g…

Where did you get this idea that all professions need to be 50%/50%? Just for example 90% of nurses are female but we are as a society are OK with that right?

You wrote this comment a few minutes ago before it was flagged off the site. You then deleted it and reposted it. Please don't do that.

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#200

Post by adamsea »

tlb wrote: post #44

I predict people will claim "our culture isn't that toxic. Some of those things happen, but they don't bother me much." If any non-zero subset of reasonable people are so offended by a behavior that they'd leave the industry because of it, we have to cut it out. So don't ask "would this bother me?" Ask "would it bother someone?" And since you can't predict this from inside your head, you have to rely on firsthand acc…

I'll build on this and predict that:

a) People will not want to acknowledge just how oppressive, racist, and sexist, our society has been in the past and the demonstrable ways in which we are still dealing with the aftereffects of that.

b) People will not want to acknowledge that there is systemic sexism and racism, with extremely negative and unjust consequences for those discriminated against, within our society, and that consequentially ....

c) People will not want to acknowledge that there is systemic sexism & racism within business, including tech, with negative and unjust consequences for those discriminated against, particularly, and relevant to this article, women.

Think that it wasn't until 1919 that women got the right to vote; it wasn't that long ago. It's logical to extrapolate from the sexism of the past that there is sexism (not as pernicious but still here in a big way) in the present.

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